I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

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I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Aero » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:40 am

They're inactive and don't do anything when they do bother to be online. Tbh, they're not even needed anymore and are just around to clean up after spam bots that should be blocked in the first place, and move topics every now and then. Even the admins are barely needed; they just need to do their actual job once in awhile and take care of this place instead of closing off threads that don't break the forum rules. The forum chugs along in spite of these groups rather than because of them at this point. You have admins like Valtteri who just don't give a shit about what about member concerns and openly say that topics can just be ignored:

Jul 20 16:48:19 <Valtteri> you know i could have just completely ignored the level judge topic

And Joey isn't as helpful, and Pseudo-dino doesn't seem to be doing much on his own. I wouldn't say they are as worthless as the Level Judges group, but they're up there with how little they do with their oversight. In the staff forum they just talk about how to handle specific users by making a thread with a username for the subject, and then collude from there. That's pretty much it besides closing legitimate reports with no further action. It's just Joey and Valtteri that bother to go on IRC - they're not necessarily be active but they're there - leaving the place to be moderated by Mithos. There's not as much spam as there was over the past two years, but there's still cases where human trolls/idiots sign on and go undetected by Mithos while Joey & Valtteri are afk. Not much has been done about that, but that's an old issue I tried to raise to no avail.

If you do a run down you'll see that we would be the same (or even better) if most of the staff were demoted, but it's mostly Mivixion and m3m3br0s that can go out quietly. Both are not active as they should be with one not making a post since last July, and the other rarely using his position to take care of forum issues. There was one point when Korean spam was piling up, was reported, and when Mivixion came online he did nothing about it and left. I had to keep bumping and pinging just to get the H&S forum stickies looked into, when that should have been a quick 5-minute task done a long time ago. It's pointless talking to them most of the time because they have this weird sense of unearned superiority when talking about things. Have a problem with how something works? It's none of your concern. Is something being managed? That's none of your business. Normal people don't talk like that, and it's only this forum where some think they have status over a bunch of children and it's probably the most authority they will ever have. It's just weird, and silly and that's what's supposed to be holding this forum together. I'm actually kind of starting to think that some problems are kept around purposefully so they can justify their positions (i.e. the spam, inefficient systems that imply moderation like how the LJs are to move levels around, and non-transparency) but I don't want to speculate. The forums would be self sustaining if a few changes are made, and that's a good thing. There wouldn't be any more SMBX communities splintering off from this one, and this one might actually be able to grow.

I know this topic is breaking my own rules for this forum, but those don't seem to matter when threads are locked here (hint look at the last poster in threads locked here and see if you spot a trend). This is all coming from a former mod, and there's other former mods that you can go to for insight about the staff and how they do their work. I bet by now at least there's a thread with my name as the subject in the Staff forum, and I can almost tell for sure who made it and who would respond to it. Since there's a don't ask don't tell policy, there's plausible deniability but that goes into what I mentioned above about the lack of transparency. I also have this post backed up in case of shenanigans.

Please let this be a civil discussion about the mods so that maybe something can actually come of this thread.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Cedur » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:22 am

To clarify on what's the issue with inactive mods (because this has been already a subject of discussion multiple times): If a mod is inactive, they're simply not doing what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to be present to take actions and handle stuff and answer questions from users etc. Generally the staff, by definition, is supposed to work hard to be more active and available to the community, and anyone who cannot do that should step down after some time, and at some points there are simply people who are more worthy of taking their spots. It's a circle of life, and usually the more active staff, the merrier (up to a certain limit oc, but we definitely have the capacity to increase it a bit accordingly).

What goes on with the staff is maybe not our "business" but it's definitely a concern for regular users as well, because they have to life under the consequences of how the staff manages the forums. So if we notice that a staff overhaul would benefit us, we have all rights to say that and be heard out, and I've also been feeling that a staff overhaul would be beneficial.

I guess that apart from Redigit the admin force can stay the same, but for the glomods there should be changes because ZM is the only one who does stuff, and the glomod force hasn't been changed for more than a year.

Also, to find a better balance between the staff and users, I'm suggesting a compromise concept: User Representatives (EDIT: whatever colour). People who serve as low staff in the sense that they don't have powers over the forums (aside from giving them powers to (un-)lock threads, which would make sense), and who are supposed to give advice to new users to find their way around here (it can be stated in the rules that if you have a simple question of forum matters, PM a UR first before posting), and who are supposed to have access to all staff areas (staff forums, LJ forums, staff chat if it exists), so they can add their ideas. URs should obviously be experienced about how things run here, but also be not too shy to ask for changes when it makes sense (in other words, giving user-based opinions), and especially they should have good language and a serious, mature attitude (like all staff should have actually, but URs are especially important as models). Furthermore, the UR concept is supposed to make decisions on mod promotions easier, as they're already known to get along well with the current staff (which forms a typical staff career via user --> UR --> mod). What URs are not supposed to do is joining conspiracies of staff and jump on bandwagons to target unpopular users, though.

I've filled out this role for two months on Runouw and I used it a lot to ask for forum cleanups and help new users, and only got demoted because the current staff was preponderantly a pile of hypocritical egoists and because of "whether you like it or not, you must comply with the wishes of staff", "We will never let you have your way because you whine about it loud enough." I can tell that this concept makes a LOT of sense if executed properly.

So, I'd suggest creating a group of four or five user reps, and hiring at least one new glomod. And I guess you can also think about rehauling the Game Masters or Level Designers group (so there's not too many usergroups / users with an actual colour), e.g. you can just remove the color from the Level Designers because there's really barely anything special about them, and you can just have the regular mods monitor Mafia and RPs as well (besiders, I think Spinda could be a good candidate for modship).

Also guys, please don't trash Aero's concerns "just because it's him complaining about things again". Look at his concerns only and you should notice that they're very reasonable. (EDIT: at least his parts of requesting more efficiency, not his part on thinking that it would make sense to have a community without staff).
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby HeroLinik » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:17 am

Yeah, this is a problem that needs to be highlighted and something done about it. As SS said, Zeldamaster is the only guy that actually does the moderation there, and nobody else actually does mod things. User Representatives seems like a nice idea as well, but I personally wouldn't go with purple because we already have pink level judges and purple level designers. Also on the topic of hiring new GMs, I would personally add two more to be honest, and they shouldn't be added randomly out of a large group. Particular traits need to be scooted out such as helping out users, having a good attitude to the community in general, and not continuously breaking the rules.

Also, you can't expect a moderator to be here around the clock. They need to live out their lives as well.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Ace » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:35 am

Linik wrote:Also, you can't expect a moderator to be here around the clock. They need to live out their lives as well.
You should at least expect them around the phases of the moon.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Cedur » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:46 am

Yeah lul, purple is their colour on Runouw and I just noticed the similarity with the Level Designer colour (I thought more that these were blue). But e.g. orange could work as well for URs.

And mods having RL duties is actually a major reason why we need a couple of them and why they should be replaced if they're obviously not around anymore (and it's also a reason why it's at least preferable to aim for a team that covers multiple timezones). It's of course an option to just change their default group preliminarily, but eventually this will have the groups clogged with black usernames and it doesn't make any differences as long as they don't return. And if they really return, there's still an option of course to give them their position back if they show signs of activity again.

EDIT: thx for clarification on the LD colour thing
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby HeroLinik » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:49 am

Supershroom wrote:(I've also questioned if the colour for Level Designers is really needed).
The colour isn't new; it's been around for longer than this forum has. I was a level designer myself for some kind of official community collab episode on Knux's site back in 2012/2013 or something, but it got dropped when the merge happened and thus the episode has been long forgotten. The level designers have access to their own forum relating to the episode, so they're not exactly the same as regular users. If we made them all regular users we wouldn't be able to differentiate between who's doing the collab episode and who isn't.

Remember, just because someone has a different username colour it doesn't mean that they have moderation duties. It just means that they're a special group intended for a specific purpose.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby PixelPest » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:58 am

Supershroom wrote:
What you, and others too (including AeroMatter), seem to be forgetting is that each group serves a purpose whether it's obvious or not. Each group also has their own forum that involves lots of work behind the scenes. Game Masters can't just be replaced with Global Moderators because their roles are special; they approve the Mafia games that are submitted, provide feedback, and moderate issues with games if needed. And what is the issue with "too many users having a colour" anyway? It by no means seems like too many or an issue. One more thing is that people have to remember that others have lives too. By the age of the Global Moderators and Admins, they're probably busy people, possibly with jobs and/or school, who you should be thankful that they contribute any time at all to keep these forums up and running

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Cedur » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:33 am

Yeah, okay. I actually also thought more laterally and guessed that having many usergroups and coloured people would maybe rather be a concern of the staff than of mine. I just notice only Spinda being an active game master and the rest either being admins or being inactive and therefore I wondered about the purpose of this group. And if level designers are a thing ever since SMBX communities existed then that's fine as well.

Also I don't think anybody here would make an open reproach against Squishy Rex and Mivixion for not being active anymore, it's simply that we're asking for a beneficial reaction on this state. For now I'd guess it could be 3 admins (not counting Redigit, no changes), 3 mods (requiring 2 promotions), 2 or 3 actual Game Masters (as in, having the colour) and 4 or 5 user reps.

Also, concerning the UR stuff, it's also advisable oc to have different kinds of characters in that group - one being a little critical, the next one being chilly and soft, another one being pragamatical etc. - just they should all fulfil basic requirements of social awareness and all that, but more importantly, the URs would be a good practical solution for many of the past (and still present?) "conflicts" between users and staff. Their main focus is communication, both with new members who have questions, and with the higher staff to discuss things.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Aero » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:36 am

Before further posts about "they have real lives, they're just too busy!"

1. They're not that important.
2. Other people should be around that can do the job then if they can't.
3. I don't care.

As for URs, that looks to me like it will be another unneeded group that can slow things down later on. I'm talking minimize the problem by fixing some stuff around here, getting rid of as many staff as possible, and letting this place run itself without the intervention of meddling or careless staff members. This acknowledges problems instead of repeating them like each SMBX forum has done by repeating the original forum formula. There's going to be inactive staff on every forum (sometimes it's even the same people across forums) so kicking the can down the road by hiring replacements would be as pointless as hiring new LJs when the problem lies with the management itself. If Joey and ZM were the only staff left, but the rest kept their name color to hide the fact, nobody would notice anything changed here. They could then just implement simple things to almost entirely offset or eliminate their work, and that would be the ideal resolution. If not, there needs to be way more accountability if the staff is going to be interfering with forum business like they have before and are doing now. I've talked to some privately, and they have a house divided as far as opinions on forum matters go. They don't put anything up for discussion about what can be done better, and instead just wait around for Joey or Valtteri to approve of anything important. That just monopolizes the power, without fixing any of this place's problems.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Yoshi021 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:19 am

What I don't understand is why Redigit still an administrator. I understand that he is the creator of SMBX, but he doesn't even come here. Who knows if he even cares about SMBX now that he has other things to keep him busy.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Paper » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:46 am

inb4 locked by Joey because the thread is "pointless"

Maybe if the regular users themselves had a little more power (ex: being able to unlock other user's threads for valid reasons, like missing requirements for threads being posted or continuing discussion), there would be zero need for most of the staff we have (except for the gamemasters...maybe).
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Aero » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:56 am

I think you're paying attention to the wrong things. It's not so much as who has what permissions on the forum, but how efficient the systems are and how they're being managed. This is why I'm raising hell in the Level Judges topic because it's an inefficient forum with absent or otherwise lazy oversight, when it could just run itself if it were restructured.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby HeroLinik » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:04 pm

Yoshi021 wrote:What I don't understand is why Redigit still an administrator. I understand that he is the creator of SMBX, but he doesn't even come here. Who knows if he even cares about SMBX now that he has other things to keep him busy.
Yeah, that's probably why, in case he suddenly decides to come back and fork over the source code, but I doubt he'll do that anytime soon!
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Cedur » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:15 pm

Some Discord conversation
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<Shroom> Hey Aero, instead of just saying "all staff is useless", it's better to make efforts on letting the groups work more efficiently
<AeroMatter> I've been trying that and still want that. I'm just pointing that out.
<StrikeForcer> I really do not like Valterri's obstination on various legitimate issues the forums still has.
<Shroom> It's not the solution though, you can't expect to let the place be run without staff
Though I acknowledge that there's issues on the attitude of supreme admins
this "I strictly don't allow for anything I don't agree with" thing
<AeroMatter> We need to give someone a broom to clean up garbage topics, we don't need staff.
There's a separation between the meaning of staff and staff actions in practice.

<Shroom> We actually need good staff
staff that's transparent and willing to listen
and also staff that has passion with running the site
<StrikeForcer> Passion ummm...no?
Transparent staff yes. I value honestly above just passion because its also a sign of competence.
<AeroMatter> You can find someone like that, they'll do that for a month or two, and then we have the same problem again.
Best thing to do is make staff obsolete, and make it harder for them to shut down discussion.
It's the only way (that I see) that transparency could last if the "right people" are in charge.
<Shroom> Joey and ZM are surely not enough to run this place, you would notice changes
<StrikeForcer> Or how about the forum take a page out of SMWC's post leniency policy that is in effect: http://www.smwcentral.net/?p=viewthread&t=84246 (Basically that moderators and admins should only get involved in shutting down spam topics and posts (not ironic shitposts) and true threats against other members)

<Shroom> Mods and admins are supposed to moderate (duh, as in monitoring threads and users) and admins are also supposed to handle server stuff, game masters are supposed to run Mafia (and RPs if they happen) and LJs are supposed to organize levels. User reps, if created, are supposed to be contact persons.
I'd rather wait for Joey/Valtteri to respond about if they want to make URs a thing and if they want to promote new mods. Before that I wouldn't be so pessimistic.
Staff should not build up a dictature but without staff the forums will fall apart.
Without staff, who shall actually have powers? Everyone? You can imagine what this means (I don't need to be sarcastic there)
Also with "passion" I rather mean the following: "Staff aims at making the place interesting and at giving new members a good guiding hand on how to integrate themselves. ESPECIALLY they don't continuously pretend like everything's okay the way it is and they don't say "we're only here to do the little and mandatory administrative tasks". If they should be slacking, they don't use the always-same phrases like "we're working behind the scenes".

<StrikeForcer> "Staff aims at making the place interesting and at giving new members a good guiding hand on how to integrate themselves. ESPECIALLY they don't continuously pretend like everything's okay the way it is and they don't say "we're only here to do the little and mandatory administrative tasks". If they should be slacking, they don't use the always-same phrases like "we're working behind the scenes". - That can be done by the userbase to guide newbies to integrate into the community.
Rather than staff.
And even so, its up to them to learn how they can integrate
The different groups are supposed to do things, but they don't. Honestly if you go through each staff member they basically do nothing to keep the forum together. The Game Masters seem to be the only exception, but they're not staff.

<Shroom> The only needless staff is Squishy Rex, Mivixion and Redigit
the rest does stuff, actually
handling reports and posts that break common habits is already important
<StrikeForcer> Um Shroom, I dont think you should list Redigit into this since he is a unique case.
In that he is only there for matters regarding the SMBX source code. Not for anything more than that.(edited)
<AeroMatter> Squishy, Mivixion, m4sterbr0s, Pseudo, Redigit, Valtteri.
<Shroom> at least Redigit's default group is to be changed
<AeroMatter> All of them do nothing or trivial tasks.
<bossedit8> love how masterbros is still in there despite the fact that he hasn't done anything in a long while
<AeroMatter> It's in case he ever comes back!!!
Any day now!!!!

<Shroom> yeah, masterbros is displayed as black to show that he's not active
though there wouldn't be any harm with demoting him right now
staff needs a rehaul, but not any kind of abolishing

EDIT: StrikeForcer told right after that he's gone back against on the idea of post leniency after further discussion regarding the state of the community

<StrikeForcer> And as I mentioned earlier (that was ignored for some reason), I did say that the moderators and admins should only be moderating the forums for spam and harrassment (actual credible harrassment such as like death threats). Just like how SMWC does it with their recent post leniency policy.(edited)

<Shroom> discipline includes more than that
I'm absolutely against too much post leniency
<StrikeForcer> You misunderstand.
Allow me to clarify.
<AeroMatter> Post leniency is bad without self moderation.
<Shroom> Actually I even think our staff should sometimes delete posts rather than replying "please make constructive posts"
<AeroMatter> We'll see how the thread goes. I don't agree with staff deciding what is and is not constructive either btw.
<Shroom> I guess they have a good sense for that, but they should just handle it apropriately
if a newbie makes 1-word-posts like "cool" on an episode, there's nothing wrong with deleting that
and the mod doing the action can PM the user

<StrikeForcer> <AeroMatter> "Post leniency is bad without self moderation." - Though im not sure how good SMBX's community is at with self-moderation but I know from my observations but I think that the fundamental thing you guys are mssing is that post leniency does not mean one can spam willy-nilly. In fact, I have seen topics that are not witty or even an ironic shitpost on SMWC trashed recently because those people do not understand what the userbase there wanted out of post leniency.
Its not a total and complete hands-off approach at moderation but rather the community wanting to advance discussion on their terms without the risk of people making funposts (ironic shitposts) being warned or banned.
Though I do understand that the drawbacks hinges upon if the standards of what the community thinks of proper discussion as well as what is a funny joke. And I am under the assumption that standards of this community has improved from a few years

<Shroom> well, indeed I'm only talking about spamming matters, such as abusing smilies, exclamation marks or capitalization (EDIT: or bumping and postcounting in general)
and that should be handled
<AeroMatter> That's the only legitimate purpose for having staff.
It happens too rarely, thankfully, to have dedicated groups for it.
Other places have janitor groups for stuff like that.

<Shroom> We'll just have to learn a few things:
1) Mods can't come online 24/7 by nature, but still they're efficient enough to handle it within a reasonable time.
2) Mods have a life, but still they're willing to spend time on managing and guiding the community, that's (usually) something really commendable.
3) Mods exist because of qualification (at least in theory). There's certain aspects of administrative tasks that should be simply taken away from the entire public, for everyone's benefit (e.g. the power to delete posts; trolls exist and are dangerous)
4) Generally without staff the place will fall apart. On Runouw.com half of the staff has quit because of the constant drama, and the aftermath is a nearly-dead community.
Also 5) you've already found a major purpose for staff to exist, but there surely is more than that. Yeah, I don't wanna support any lines of "we do work behind the scenes" as excuses for staff inactivity, but this work exists indeed
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Valtteri » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:27 pm

"some think they have status over a bunch of children and it's probably the most authority they will ever have"
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Aero » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:30 pm

Linik wrote:Also, everyone take a look at this poll.
Poll link is dead.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Moderators.

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:53 pm

I'm sorry that this message is brief but I think I've said multiple times over the past several weeks that who is on the staff team of this forum is not the concern of anyone but the staff itself. If something going on here bothers you this much, talk to me or another administrator privately or simply go do something else to take your mind off of it. Y'all seem to care too much about the politics of an Internet forum and I want it to stop now. This includes old and new members. Thanks.


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