I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Zeldamaster12 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:53 pm

LJs really shouldn't be trying to manage the users. Their jobs are to manage levels, projects, and episodes, make sure that when people are giving input about one of these, they say something worthwhile, and lock threads that break the subforum rules. Telling users to not do things like double post, bump, post with bad English, flame, etc. shouldn't be up to the LJs, it should be up to the mods.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Pseudo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:01 pm

^
Yeah, I agree with this. If they're trusted to do that sort of moderation work in the level forums they might as well be allowed to do so in the other forums as well, but I think we can all agree that level judges should not be global moderators (no offense to any of the level judges - but Joey has not selected you for a global mod position and therefore presumably would not trust you with that role or power).

Level judges are not supposed to be forum moderators from my perspective. Their purpose is to judge levels, and I suppose in some senses moderate the levels forum for specific types of "bad posts" that are specific to the levels forums, such as non-constructive feedback ("nice level", "this level sucks" etc.), but not to moderate for the sorts of things that global moderators are hired to. After all, they're promoted for their judging skills, not their moderating skills, so there is little reason to believe that level judges would be a good choice for moderating the forums.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Valtteri » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:23 pm

RezsurXion wrote:Valtteri I dont know who youre trying to fool but when I was LJ and you were actually one of the nicer admins here you told me yourself that LJs, and so did joey actually, are not allowed to do any moderating that a gm would normally do, LJs are for the sole purpose of making sure levels get reviewed and episodes and such stay active.

Furthermore there was a system in place that an LJ must review at least one level per week and post the link to it in the thread in the LJ forum. Failure to do so eventually ended up in demotion and if Im not mistaken there have been a ton less reviews and I hardly see any LJs doing their job and reviewing a level every week.

Its as if you "own" the position yet you do nothing productive to better it for the future.
I have never stated a rule that the level judges shouldn't moderate the level forum. I don't know where you get that. That being said, I don't disagree with the idea that the Level Judges would leave all the work that mods would normally do to mods. However that is not what is being suggested in this thread. What is being suggested is that there's a set list of mod duties that Level Judges have that includes enforcing the screenshot rule and dealing with nonconstructive posts, but not dealing with double posting or bumping topics. This is untrue. This isn't stated anywhere and was made up by the people arguing about it in this thread for unknown reasons.

To address the old one-review-a-week rule that you mentioned, we did use to enforce that but it kind of died out. People stopped posting in the review logs. I don't find this surprising as it's tiresome to monitor a group of people like that.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:28 pm

So if all that's true why was bossedit demoted for editing and moderating? Also if LJs are too lazy to copy and paste their reviews, maybe they should be done away with if they can't handle being held accountable to doing their job.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Valtteri » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:34 pm

I'm not going to go into specifics as to why bossedit8 was demoted but he went a lot further than dealing with bumps
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:46 pm

Course.

Can you get the global announcement going though? You never responded.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Kyo Saito » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:00 pm

Pseudo-dino wrote:^
Yeah, I agree with this. If they're trusted to do that sort of moderation work in the level forums they might as well be allowed to do so in the other forums as well, but I think we can all agree that level judges should not be global moderators (no offense to any of the level judges - but Joey has not selected you for a global mod position and therefore presumably would not trust you with that role or power).

Level judges are not supposed to be forum moderators from my perspective. Their purpose is to judge levels, and I suppose in some senses moderate the levels forum for specific types of "bad posts" that are specific to the levels forums, such as non-constructive feedback ("nice level", "this level sucks" etc.), but not to moderate for the sorts of things that global moderators are hired to. After all, they're promoted for their judging skills, not their moderating skills, so there is little reason to believe that level judges would be a good choice for moderating the forums.
Judging by this, could the group simply be renamed to Level Moderators and the group's color be removed? I feel at this point in time, the current members of the Level Judges group only have their position because it provides them with a sense of higher importance and it gives them a flashy pink username that normal users wouldn't have the honor of receiving, and for the little actual amount of "Judging" the Level Judges would actually do, it would seem somewhat appropriate for the group's color to be that of a default user's, that way the line between normal users and level "judges" can be extinguished, which can discourage others from making reviews for levels.

Another example of this would be the Game Masters group, which I feel has a completely unnecessary group color, considering the only use for it is to manage and moderate the Mafia forum, I think that it would be wise to eliminate that group's color as well. Level Designers could go the same way, if you deem it necessary. I feel the only argumentation going on is that certain users have colored names and a "higher" position than others, which can create tension and a sense of "worthlessness", if you will. Level Judges are somewhat unnecessary, as the whole point of SMBX is to make levels and play through other peoples', not have designated members assigned the duty of "judging" the levels, which can completely ruin the point of constructive criticism, especially for a community where that should be of immense use.

I don't think the Level Judges group should be removed, but I think it should be aptly renamed to "Level Moderators" and the group color stripped, the same could follow for Level Designers and Game Masters. Do you think this would ease tensions, even at the slightest?

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:34 pm

I think what you're describing comes more from the moderation perks than the name color. It doesn't really address the systemic problems either with constructive criticism. I don't see why you wouldn't just get rid of the group and leave it to the users to review levels instead of limiting it to the pace of a group of absent judges.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby HeroOfRhyme » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:29 am

Valtteri wrote:I'm not going to go into specifics as to why bossedit8 was demoted but he went a lot further than dealing with bumps
At least he did something other than bitch and complain and make stupid arguments like almost every current LJ.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Pseudo » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:54 am

Kyo Saito wrote:
The problem with making them Level Moderators is that, under the current system, level judges are not appointed based on their skills as moderators, but based on their skills as judges -i.e. they have to send in good level reviews to get appointed. These folks are not necessarily trustworthy as moderators, so at the very least level moderators would have to be a different group. This is my primary problem with them acting as moderators, anyways - they are not appointed because they are trusted as staff members but because they are good at reviewing levels and active in doing so, theoretically.

Name colors, while overhyped, I think are necessary since it allows new users and such to know who actually has some kind of authority when they speak - it shows that they're not just backseat moderating. It actually does come in handy for game masters a lot: we post in blue text when speaking on official game matters and the game master color is relevant then (although only Spinda currently has that username color). I get where you're coming from, and it would be cool if they would only display in color in the relevant forums, but I don't believe that phpBB allows that.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby HeroOfRhyme » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:36 pm

I imagine if you really want to go in depth with username colors and overhaul the plugin system you could probably make your own version of the plugin to do so, it would just require advanced php code.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:42 pm

Seems like a lot of work just for a cosmetic change, that won't make a difference.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby HeroLinik » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:11 am

I'm going to have to bump this, because there is still something missing.

It seems like our problems with the dead Level Judges seem to have been sorted when more of them seem to have been taken in, and they review more actively as well and levels are moved into the correct forums respective of their scoring, in contrast to when this topic was created. However, why is as303298 still a Level Judge, if he has not reviewed since March? Shouldn't inactive Level Judges be demoted, especially if they have not reviewed for four months?
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Cedur » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:20 am

Right now I only see four people with pink colour and four others being displayed as regular users (plus Spinda), and some of those are still actively reviewing and some coloured ones seem to be inactive (as303298, according to Linik). It tends to be messy. Looking at the Game Masters group (I can't judge how much purpose this group still has these days), there's only Spinda having the colour and two black-displayed users being in the group.

I think this is a good moment to clean up these groups; also in terms of clarifying how much moderating authority an LJ should have, and how there can be less fluctuation of them. I prefer the concept of level moderators (in fact I'd recommend renaming LJs into LeMods officially). They don't have to be strictly picked like you consider people to be fit for glomod. Since they're active and have common sense on proper English and proper reviewing, and since they do a very important job, they should also be capable to enforce rules in their subforums and to have powers such as editing, deleting, changing topic type or changing post owner, and they (or most of them, at least) should be competent enough to have a say on general staffing duties and staff-internal discussions. A group out of 5 or 6 active LJs/LeMods should be able to sort all levels within less than a week for each level. And generally it should be common that the oldest unsorted level gets a review first, instead of a newly posted level being directly reviewed and others remaining unreviewed for a couple of months. Officially upgrading the importancy of the LJ group could help on keeping their members active for longer.

And inactive LJs should naturally be demoted after some time (at least if they agree for it).
Last edited by Cedur on Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby HeroLinik » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:31 am

Supershroom wrote:Right now I only see four people with pink colour and four others being displayed as regular users (plus Spinda), and some of those are still actively reviewing and some coloured ones seem to be inactive (as303298, according to Linik). It tends to be messy. Looking at the Game Masters group (I can't judge how much purpose this group still has these days), there's only Spinda having the colour and two black-displayed users being in the group.
The colour of the users doesn't matter. They might have chosen to be displayed as regular users but they're still technically Level Judges and they still bear the pink usernames.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:03 am

Supershroom wrote:Officially upgrading the importancy of the LJ group could help on keeping their members active for longer.
Yeah you would think that, but we only have like one active mod at this point and another just sitting around with a black username for whenever they decide to come back even though they haven't posted for just shy of a year now. The problems with the LJs reflect the staff that hired them, and making their position more important would be even worse. They can't handle a basic task, and when they do it's usually done generically. Even when faced with a 50/50 attitude split on how well they're handling the forum, they still just ignore criticism and probably count on this thread being ignored, because not one suggestion was discussed and two more LJs were promoted in spite of the discussion so far. LJs need to be done away with, period.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Valtteri » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:15 am

Linik wrote:why is as303298 still a Level Judge
With all due respect, it does not concern you who we hire/fire.
AeroMatter wrote:LJs need to be done away with, period.
I will repeat the reasons why we're not getting rid of Level Judges since you ignored them the first time. We need a group of competent people to sort our levels into the different categories. The group decides on the new judges too. You don't need to personally see us as qualified for reviewing levels or picking new judges. The level categories are convenient because they make browsing levels easier and they separate reviewed levels from unreviewed ones. Besides, they've been around since the very beginning of this community and there's no reason to do away with them as they are not causing any problems. Additionally, your idea of compromising the entire Levels forum for a single topic is insane and there's no evidence that it would create any more discussion. What it will definitely do is make browsing levels extremely inconvenient.

As for your poll with 54 votes with "Okay, needs some changes." winning apparently, we're happy to carry out changes once some rational ideas come up.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:09 pm

How did the group feel about promoting TTK, and why is it that about half the discussion around this topic is in PM because people don't want to be hassled or scolded? Additionally, your idea of compromising the entire Levels forum for your whim is insane and there's no evidence that the system is working. What it is doing is making posting and discussing levels pointless.

As for your notion that everything so far that has been said is irrational, 27 people would disagree, and they would be happy to see some sort of changes discussed.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Cedur » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:30 pm

Alternatively, if it stays that LJs are not supposed to be regarded as moderators, you could just assign them powers to move and lock topics but nothing more.

What I meant to say is that if LJs are valued more, then they'll also value their position more for themselves and it's not just a tiresome mandatory task they fulfil, thus they might stay active longer.

Any kind of issues with the staff eventually slacking and not having made any new promotions on admins / glomods for over a year are off-topic actually. It's probably best to have a separate topic where people explain who they consider suitable for a position, and how they would imagine an ideal team in general, if it's reasonable to discuss this right now.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Valtteri » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:20 pm

AeroMatter wrote:How did the group feel about promoting TTK, and why is it that about half the discussion around this topic is in PM because people don't want to be hassled or scolded? Additionally, your idea of compromising the entire Levels forum for your whim is insane and there's no evidence that the system is working. What it is doing is making posting and discussing levels pointless.

As for your notion that everything so far that has been said is irrational, 27 people would disagree, and they would be happy to see some sort of changes discussed.
The Thwomp King's promotion isn't really any of your business but for your information two were for it, one agreed on a condition and one made a passive aggressive comment that didn't take a clear stand on either side. I don't understand the "half the discussion around this topic is in PM" part. What topic, state of level judges or The Thwomp King's promotion? Neither of these discussions is in PM. I'm not compromising the Levels forum for anything. You can't say there's no evidence that the system is working when it's actually totally working. Posting and discussing levels is not made pointless in any way. The level judges' opinions are ultimately the only ones that matter regarding the category the level will be moved to, correct, but they're people who were picked because they know what they're doing. Like our judgement or not. And even then normal users can post criticism just the same, and their reviews can end up determining what category the level belongs to. You're wrong. And where do you get these 27 people who disagree that the suggestions in this topic have all been either stupid or useless? All I see is poll numbers that have nothing to do with any specific ideas.

What's with you parroting my post's layout? Is that supposed to be edgy? It just comes out as strange to me.
Supershroom wrote:if it stays that LJs are not supposed to be regarded as moderators
They are moderators. They moderate the Levels forum.
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