I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby TLtimelord » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:43 pm

Why not rename them to "Level Moderators" or "Level Movers" then? That seems much more fitting.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:58 pm

Valtteri wrote:
This is your problem, whenever you're asked about something you give the predictable "it's not your business" "it's none of your concern" "we will take care of that." It's predictable and reflects badly on you as an "administrator" when you treat simple inquiries with contempt. I've had people (that I will not name or describe) come to me in PM here, on IRC, and other platforms talking about this thread because they either don't want to start shit with you or another admin/mod or just want to avoid "controversy" all together. I mean you're barely worth talking to at this point when you are just hostile to any outside suggestions, and ignore every fault that's been addressed with the Levels forum and just call everything you disagree with "irrational" while never putting it up for discussion when half the people disagree with you. The LJs are either inactive like as303298 - oops not my business - or don't do any meaningful work like PixelPest, Sanct, glitch4, and now zlaker. Posting and discussing levels is pointless with the current system and LJs need to be done away with, and until you can justify how it isn't and why LJs are needed; I'll just be left to simply contradict you until you bring up a point in defense that can actually be discussed.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby HeroLinik » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:31 pm

TNTtimelord wrote:"Level Movers"
That's a stupid name and it tarnishes the reputation of the judges. Don't go with that one.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:33 pm

If you think that a level judge is doing something wrong, like giving a level a ridiculously unfair review, moderating where they're not supposed to moderate, breaking forum rules, etc. then that's a legitimate concern that should be reported. Things like "this level judge isn't doing enough work" or "this level judge is inactive" (i.e. calling out individual peoples' staff positions) are not something you need to worry about. As we've said when people whine about "inactive moderators", it's not like there are spots that need to be filled. I hope that clears up some of what Val is saying.

On the subject of peoples' name colors, a colored name should denote an active status for whatever position. For example, m4sterbr0s isn't an active staff member at this time despite still being in that group (which is why he's displayed on the group listing). There should not be anybody who is an active staff member, be it a Level Judge, Game Master, or any other group, and does not have the color. I realize that this has happened in the past, and it's my bad for not adequately fixing that issue. If you're active, you have a username color, and if you're not then you don't. This includes Level Judges using their moderation capabilities while not being active judges. Again, though, this is not an issue that any of you need to worry about. The only time where an inactivity complaint is appropriate is when no levels are getting reviewed.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby HeroLinik » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:38 pm

AeroMatter wrote:
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This is your problem, whenever you're asked about something you give the predictable "it's not your business" "it's none of your concern" "we will take care of that." It's predictable and reflects badly on you as an "administrator" when you treat simple inquiries with contempt. I've had people (that I will not name or describe) come to me in PM here, on IRC, and other platforms talking about this thread because they either don't want to start shit with you or another admin/mod or just want to avoid "controversy" all together. I mean you're barely worth talking to at this point when you are just hostile to any outside suggestions, and ignore every fault that's been addressed with the Levels forum and just call everything you disagree with "irrational" while never putting it up for discussion when half the people disagree with you. The LJs are either inactive like as303298 - oops not my business - or don't do any meaningful work like PixelPest, Sanct, glitch4, and now zlaker. Posting and discussing levels is pointless with the current system and LJs need to be done away with, and until you can justify how it isn't and why LJs are needed; I'll just be left to simply contradict you until you bring up a point in defense that can actually be discussed.
To be honest, just because he gives the remark that it doesn't concern you, it does not mean that nothing is being done about it. You can't look into what staff members are doing, and it could possibly be that there is a discussion going on about what to do with a certain judge in the Level Judge forum, but you just can't see it. The reason Valtteri is saying that it doesn't concern you is because it's confidential and it will not be revealed until something is actually done about it.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:00 pm

You're touching on the subject of what goes on behind the scenes, which is yet another problem that needs to be discussed but probably won't, so I'll just point out that you were just told the same thing when asking why a LJ who hasn't been active/posted in months is still a Judge. I've been a mod before, and the typical topics you would see have a person's username as the title and then deciding how to handle them rather than interact with them and be - dare I say it - accountable and transparent. I would say the other mods/admins could confirm this but there's a sticky basically saying "what happens in the staff forum stays in the staff forum," so you'll have to take my word on that. Also there's nothing "confidential" about the situation either, this is amounting to be a one-way discussion about the Levels forum not national security details.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby TLtimelord » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:21 pm

Linik wrote:
TNTtimelord wrote:"Level Movers"
That's a stupid name and it tarnishes the reputation of the judges. Don't go with that one.
Idk it sounds good to me. It's been done before on other mario forums, so that's where I derive the idea.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aristo » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:51 pm

Implying Level Judges have a reputation that sets them apart from normal users
Of course you need to believe in things that aren't real. How else can they become?

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Valtteri » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:23 pm

TNTtimelord wrote:Why not rename them to "Level Moderators" or "Level Movers" then? That seems much more fitting.
How is "Level Judges" not an appropriate title though? They judge levels. Additionally, they do moderating on the Levels forum and this has been the case since the beginning, too. I don't understand how it's a problem all of a sudden.
AeroMatter wrote:This is your problem, whenever you're asked about something you give the predictable "it's not your business" "it's none of your concern" "we will take care of that." It's predictable and reflects badly on you as an "administrator" when you treat simple inquiries with contempt. I've had people (that I will not name or describe) come to me in PM here, on IRC, and other platforms talking about this thread because they either don't want to start shit with you or another admin/mod or just want to avoid "controversy" all together. I mean you're barely worth talking to at this point when you are just hostile to any outside suggestions, and ignore every fault that's been addressed with the Levels forum and just call everything you disagree with "irrational" while never putting it up for discussion when half the people disagree with you. The LJs are either inactive like as303298 - oops not my business - or don't do any meaningful work like PixelPest, Sanct, glitch4, and now zlaker. Posting and discussing levels is pointless with the current system and LJs need to be done away with, and until you can justify how it isn't and why LJs are needed; I'll just be left to simply contradict you until you bring up a point in defense that can actually be discussed.
As Joey told you you aren't entitled to the information you are demanding regarding hiring/firing level judges. I'm sorry if I seem contemptuous to you when I deny you this information. I'm also sorry if I seem hostile to suggestions. I'm not, but I confess to be frustrated that you keep pushing certain ideas of yours after I've told you several times why they can't be carried out. You say that I call every suggestion irrational and I would like to correct you, I only think that of your suggestions, namely getting rid of the levels forum and the judges, for reasons I do not need to repeat. There have been no other notable suggestions. As for your notion that half the people disagree with me, disagree with me on what? That your ideas are horrible? People voted for some unnamed changes in your poll but this doesn't at all mean that they all support your ideas; they could be thinking of anything with the options being worded so vaguely. Finally you repeat the "posting and discussing levels is pointless" mantra despite the fact that I refuted it two times already. You may indeed keep going but I've said all I have to say and you ignoring it is not my concern.
Marina wrote:Implying Level Judges have a reputation that sets them apart from normal users
Well, yeah. You know they're picked based on their skills in reviewing and level design.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:05 pm

Marina's suggestion was notable, but you made a blanket statement that things suggested so far are not rational by saying that you're waiting on rational changes to be pitched. You haven't shown how the current system is better, you're just going after my suggestions while not defending your own. You haven't given a clear defense of level threads dying when they're moved, nor have you explained why the way levels are organized now is really the best way to organize them, and on we go with you saying that it's been this way since the first forum and that going nuclear would be worse. Maybe there is some compromise to be had here, since it was a 50/50 attitude split, which is why I went as far as to ping you a few times to have a global announcement where we could outline our arguments with a poll that is more clear so that some sort of agreement can be reached. I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, I'm just speaking up on the behalf of others that I've talked to and yes, trying to force the issue because there are legitimate grievances held by more than just me. I mentioned in another thread to Pseudo that I'm not trying to police you guys, and that it seems like I am given that you have text to read and tone to interpret.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Valtteri » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:17 pm

This was Marina's suggestion:
Marina wrote:a level judge shouldnt be a temporary position until the person gets tired of being a level judge or w/e and retires, but rather something like a checkmark given to every user that has proven that theyre capable of giving good reviews, that way we would get the levels reviewed faster and everyone who is qualified to give their opinion can actually give their opinion and it matters
The only difference is that instead of letting people apply we would just make everyone a level judge who we deemed to be competent. This obviously doesn't solve anything and hence I do not consider it a notable suggestion.

You say that I do not defend the current system. That is untrue, but very well, I'll repeat myself. You should know that topics dying after a while is very normal. I'm not sure the moving is what causes it, but I do not totally reject the notion. When they're moved, that means they've been reviewed, and these reviews should cover most of the stuff that is worth saying about the level, so there's not much to discuss about the level afterwards. I don't see the problem. Doing away with level judges however would mean that every level wouldn't necessarily get criticism. As I see the way we organize the levels, it's kind of like a game where you try to get a high score on your level, if you like. I guess there are other options, too, like sorting by theme or difficulty, but changing something trivial like that seems pointless to me. Most people seem to be ok with sorting by score.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:50 pm

By notable I was referring to the fact that other people thought it was a good idea, and seemed to be an honest suggestion for improvement. I don't necessarily agree with it because it wouldn't solve much and would just offset current problems, but it's not something to make a blanket statement about.

Also yes, it is normal for topics to die off after a while, but not in the way they do in the Levels forum. After a level is reviewed, it may get a few more replies right after but after that the thread dies. It's a combination of the levels being moved and the reviews themselves that seem to be killing the threads, since regular users don't have an incentive to offer their feedback after a Level Judge gave theirs with the facade of an official review. I don't think that a Level Judge magically has the capacity to give a thorough analysis of each level to where it's the end-all be-all of the thread, and since reviews seem to be the generic paragraph followed by a number it doesn't seem like that's what Level Judges are setting out to do in the first place. Sorting levels could still be like a game where you try to get a high score, but levels could be posted in a singular sticky showcasing the better levels in the forum. If you take a look at the Levels forum, you'll see that the majority of topics go into Pretty Good and Average, when they could just remain in the regular levels forum. A compromise could be made here where only levels that would normally be moved to The Best would be moved like normal, and the rest just stays therefor offsetting the workload of Level Judges even more than the Casual forum does, and leaving threads to be discussed normally as they are in all other forums. I mean you would expect the majority of levels to be average and pretty good with some bad ones here and there, so I don't see how it would be any different in principle if they were treated like average threads where the best are nabbed and put in another place to stand out. This alone would probably satisfy both parties and get common ground going for an actual discussion on the changes to be made from there regarding Level Judges, and topic formatting.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby PixelPest » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:00 pm

AeroMatter wrote:Also yes, it is normal for topics to die off after a while, but not in the way they do in the Levels forum. After a level is reviewed, it may get a few more replies right after but after that the thread dies.
I don't see how this was an issue from the beginning. If people don't want to discuss a topic, why should we promote it further? No one is stopping them. Just because a level is moved doesn't mean there can't be further comments made on it.
AeroMatter wrote:It's a combination of the levels being moved and the reviews themselves that seem to be killing the threads, since regular users don't have an incentive to offer their feedback after a Level Judge gave theirs with the facade of an official review. I don't think that a Level Judge magically has the capacity to give a thorough analysis of each level to where it's the end-all be-all of the thread, and since reviews seem to be the generic paragraph followed by a number it doesn't seem like that's what Level Judges are setting out to do in the first place.
Isn't a paragraph and a number the point of a review? Level Judges give feedback on levels and their critique is approved by others as being good, so they can score a level as they please after a review is written. If regular users have no incentive to post feedback after a Level Judge reviews, that's their own issue. If they have their own opinion, no one is telling them they can't step up and say that they don't agree with what a Level Judge has said. If Level Judges didn't give reviews, levels wouldn't get this approved good feedback, or at least fully and concisely, without bias too, on all levels, popular or not.
AeroMatter wrote:Sorting levels could still be like a game where you try to get a high score, but levels could be posted in a singular sticky showcasing the better levels in the forum.
This idea has been mentioned so many times, however it doesn't seem to solve the issue. If good levels are all merged into a single topic, chaos would ensue. Levels would likely get buried just the same way as they do now and I don't see how this would by any means increase the incentive for discussion. If anything, I think this would just make things more than anything, while now it is at least organized.
AeroMatter wrote:If you take a look at the Levels forum, you'll see that the majority of topics go into Pretty Good and Average, when they could just remain in the regular levels forum. A compromise could be made here where only levels that would normally be moved to The Best would be moved like normal, and the rest just stays therefor offsetting the workload of Level Judges even more than the Casual forum does, and leaving threads to be discussed normally as they are in all other forums. I mean you would expect the majority of levels to be average and pretty good with some bad ones here and there, so I don't see how it would be any different in principle if they were treated like average threads where the best are nabbed and put in another place to stand out. This alone would probably satisfy both parties and get common ground going for an actual discussion on the changes to be made from there regarding Level Judges, and topic formatting.
Well this definitely wouldn't satisfy me. If anything, topics would be buried more, the Levels forum would be way less organized, there would be no increased incentive for discussion, and this doesn't happen fix the issue of reviewing since all levels would still have to be reviewed anyway to decide if they should be moved or not

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:06 pm

Look, I know you're trying to defend your title and all but your posts are starting to get annoying. Back up what you say if you're going to make a claim. Provide examples, and point to how I'm wrong about my direct observations of what's going on in the Levels forum and save the "chaos" lines. You're acting just like Valtteri by making up flaws with everything but the current system, and not defending it.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby PixelPest » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:30 pm

AeroMatter wrote:Look, I know you're trying to defend your title and all but your posts are starting to get annoying. Back up what you say if you're going to make a claim. Provide examples, and point to how I'm wrong about my direct observations of what's going on in the Levels forum and save the "chaos" lines. You're acting just like Valtteri by making up flaws with everything but the current system, and not defending it.
I'm just going to ignore that first sentence...

It's hard for me to provide examples when none of your ideas have been implemented. The best I can do I state my opinion that I've formed by personal experience and inferences based on my current observations. There really isn't much more I can do than that. Although I have to say, your criticism hasn't really been specific either. You've pretty much said, "Level Judges suck right now and don't do their job, here's a crazy idea," and, "Administrators exercise their power where they shouldn't," without really backing anything up. It's kind of hard to pull the "provide specific examples card" when you're not exactly doing so yourself

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aero » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:15 pm

I've pointed at actual examples of short comings of the system: threads dying earlier than they should, delayed reviews due to LJ inactivity, the trivial nature of review scores, and how the Levels forum can emulate the way other forums operate here. All you've done is say there will be chaos, and it's a crazy radical idea to leave it to regular users instead of the pace of inattentive LJs and treat the forum like any other one. You should prove these observations wrong, and how the current system is supposed to be significantly better.

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Aristo » Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:29 am

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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Witchking666 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:32 am

I wanna bring something else to the table. Why are re-reviews still a thing.
Yeah I know that you can make your level better after a review and get a better score, but is that truly the purpose of the levels forum?
In my opinion it isn't. I think the levels forum isn't a competition on who can get the highest score for their level design, I think it rather is to get feedback on your design and make better levels in the future. I also get that people turn it into this competition since we litteraly have a scoring section in which we label levels as trash (as I allready had a problem with long before) So i'm questioning if re-reviews should still exist. Yeah sure you would rather have a nine then a six. But if a judge gives you a six then that is what you should deal with. Of course it isn't acceptable if someone would give a level a two that deserves a nine according to the overall cloud, but that happens so rarely that I don't really think it matters. Removing re-reviews would allready cut off a part of the level judges tasks making those that are active have an easier life.

Also, I honestly don't get how Spinda, Sanct and Wraith are still in the group. Sanct's last review was on the 21st of march his year. Wraith's last review was on the 6th of march and Spinda's last one was on october the 27th of 2015. That is a whopping 260 days ago man. That is over half a year. Seriously why are these people still here anyway.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby Cedur » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:46 am

Isn't re-reviewing happening after a person tweaks their level and isn't supposed to post it again?

Anyway, I see the following possible solutions on making the level judging system more efficient and on clarifying how much of a moderating authority they should have (referring to the stuff of "they're picked primarily based on reviewing skills and based on for moderating skills" and "was bossedit really demoted for too much moderating" and alike).
  • Try to always strictly review levels from oldest to newest, independently from an interesting title / a well known author or whatever would make you want to review a newer level first. That way it's avoided to have levels unreviewed for a month or longer.
  • Not always just wait for people to apply themselves. If you see someone making quality reviews and giving reasonable scores / arguments, why not ask them yourselves if they want the position?
  • Pay attention on when an LJ has made their last review, and demote them by default if it's way too long back (e.g. 3 months), or ask them directly if they're fine with being demoted.
  • Clarify on how much skills on moderating an LJ must have. If they're not supposed to do any work of a normal admin / glomod, then just give them power to move and lock topics, that's all they need for the system. If they're supposed to be trusted moderators with a healthy attitude, rename them to level moderators and eventually rehaul the group entirely for once.
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Re: I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

Postby HeroLinik » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:31 am

witchking666 wrote:Also, I honestly don't get how Spinda, Sanct and Wraith are still in the group. Sanct's last review was on the 21st of march his year. Wraith's last review was on the 6th of march and Spinda's last one was on october the 27th of 2015. That is a whopping 260 days ago man. That is over half a year. Seriously why are these people still here anyway.
I asked that same question earlier, only about why Wraith is still a judge, and this was the response that I got:
Valtteri wrote:With all due respect, it does not concern you who we hire/fire.
That's a major problem right there. Locking out regular users from moderator matters doesn't help to solve problems. In fact, it might make them worse because it only restricts the say to a certain group of users and not the whole community. It seems to ride on the principle that just because a regular user highlights a problem with the system, it is not sorted out just because they're a regular user and don't have moderation powers.
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