Will SMBX eventually die?

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:31 pm

Hi all, hopefully this post clears up the misinformation in this thread.

It's important to know the legal terminology. There was never a "lawsuit" filed against Redigit, and there was definitely never any significant risk of Redigit going to trial in a court (95% of civil cases end in settlement before even going to trial). What was presented to Redigit was a "cease and desist" ("C&D"), which is basically a way to say "stop what you're doing or we're going to take legal action".

The C&D was received in late April 2011 and came from the Seattle-based Miller Nash law firm. Redigit complied with this C&D, which included these parts (I'm not sure if this is how it was worded, but this is at least what he ended up doing): removing the SMBX download, removing his videos and SMBX-related content, and transferring the "supermariobrothers.org" domain name to Nintendo. He fulfilled the first two requests immediately, but it was a little over one year later (around June 2012) that he gave them the domain name.

It's also important to note that all of this came after Redigit had officially announced that he was done developing SMBX (early April). It was not, as some have suspected, some ploy to rid himself of the program and/or its community. Sure, we haven't heard from the law firm itself on the matter, but they're not obligated to do that and probably aren't even allowed to anyway. Again, there was no "lawsuit" filed, so I don't think we'd be able to find anything that's public information.

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Knux » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:24 pm

Nobody said there was a lawsuit, but that there was certainly a potential for one.

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:01 pm

AirSeus wrote:you were most likely not even there
lol

For the record I wasn't there during the time of the C&D specifically, but I had visited SMB.org since May 2009, joined its forums in September that year, and witnessed when it was taken down in 2012.

In the meantime, I recommend not basing half of your arguments on the assumption that the call was real when you haven't substantiated that assumption at all. Knux did, Shadow Yoshi/Joey did, but you're just assuming things about me and about your argument.
Shadow Yoshi wrote:The C&D was received in late April 2011 and came from the Seattle-based Miller Nash law firm. Redigit complied with this C&D, which included these parts (I'm not sure if this is how it was worded, but this is at least what he ended up doing): removing the SMBX download, removing his videos and SMBX-related content, and transferring the "supermariobrothers.org" domain name to Nintendo. He fulfilled the first two requests immediately, but it was a little over one year later (around June 2012) that he gave them the domain name.

It's also important to note that all of this came after Redigit had officially announced that he was done developing SMBX (early April). It was not, as some have suspected, some ploy to rid himself of the program and/or its community. Sure, we haven't heard from the law firm itself on the matter, but they're not obligated to do that and probably aren't even allowed to anyway.
Thing is, it's still very oddly convenient that redigit received these requests to take down SMBX in a time when he was trying to rid himself as much of the game as possible. Combining those two things with the fact that the site was not taken down until more than a year later (and this was for some reason okay with Nintendo), the fact that Redigit himself is the only one we've heard about this from, and the undisturbed prevalence of SMBX since 2013, the case looks very suspicious. You have to make heavier assumptions to believe that it was a takedown by Nintendo than if it wasn't. Redigit just could've looked up a name from a resource and then used it for one final reason to get people to stop pestering him about SMBX.

Sure, we might not be able to get direct evidence that the call actually happened, but that isn't in and of itself support for its case--it only excuses the lack of such.

I'm not saying that it's stupid or wrong to believe that the call is real, just that there's a lot of reason weighing against it as well as for it. Whether or not the call is real makes no difference in the meantime, since Nintendo's clearly not paying attention to our actions now (and, as stated, SMBX will not die once they do find out about us).
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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Aero » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:46 pm

Zha Hong Lang wrote:Thing is, it's still very oddly convenient that redigit received these requests to take down SMBX in a time when he was trying to rid himself as much of the game as possible. Combining those two things with the fact that the site was not taken down until more than a year later (and this was for some reason okay with Nintendo), the fact that Redigit himself is the only one we've heard about this from, and the undisturbed prevalence of SMBX since 2013, the case looks very suspicious. You have to make heavier assumptions to believe that it was a takedown by Nintendo than if it wasn't. Redigit just could've looked up a name from a resource and then used it for one final reason to get people to stop pestering him about SMBX.

Sure, we might not be able to get direct evidence that the call actually happened, but that isn't in and of itself support for its case--it only excuses the lack of such.

I'm not saying that it's stupid or wrong to believe that the call is real, just that there's a lot of reason weighing against it as well as for it. Whether or not the call is real makes no difference in the meantime, since Nintendo's clearly not paying attention to our actions now (and, as stated, SMBX will not die once they do find out about us).
Redigit could have just said "I'm done with this game, I'm moving on to something else" and that would have been fine, and lying would be entirely unnecessary. It would be fraudulent anyway to fabricate a C&D letter on the behalf of another person or group, and could potentially be libelous to make people hate Nintendo instead of him about it. I've never heard of a case of falsifying a C&D against oneself, and it might be because that would be incredibly stupid and pointless.
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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:23 am

GhostHawk wrote:Redigit could have just said "I'm done with this game, I'm moving on to something else" and that would have been fine, and lying would be entirely unnecessary.
He'd also tried numerous other means to calm down his fanbase, and nothing really worked. One of the reasons he stopped making SMBX in the first place was because of how much the fanbase drove him nuts.
It would be fraudulent anyway to fabricate a C&D letter on the behalf of another person or group, and could potentially be libelous to make people hate Nintendo instead of him about it. I've never heard of a case of falsifying a C&D against oneself, and it might be because that would be incredibly stupid and pointless.
I've heard of at least one other suspicious C&D case (Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes) that ended up being all but confirmed to be false. Whether or not such a thing is fraudulent doesn't matter anyway, since that's obviously not the priority.
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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby AirSeus » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 am

Zha Hong Lang wrote:
AirSeus wrote:you were most likely not even there
lol

For the record I wasn't there during the time of the C&D specifically, but I had visited SMB.org since May 2009, joined its forums in September that year, and witnessed when it was taken down in 2012.

In the meantime, I recommend not basing half of your arguments on the assumption that the call was real when you haven't substantiated that assumption at all. Knux did, Shadow Yoshi/Joey did, but you're just assuming things about me and about your argument.
Shadow Yoshi wrote:The C&D was received in late April 2011 and came from the Seattle-based Miller Nash law firm. Redigit complied with this C&D, which included these parts (I'm not sure if this is how it was worded, but this is at least what he ended up doing): removing the SMBX download, removing his videos and SMBX-related content, and transferring the "supermariobrothers.org" domain name to Nintendo. He fulfilled the first two requests immediately, but it was a little over one year later (around June 2012) that he gave them the domain name.

It's also important to note that all of this came after Redigit had officially announced that he was done developing SMBX (early April). It was not, as some have suspected, some ploy to rid himself of the program and/or its community. Sure, we haven't heard from the law firm itself on the matter, but they're not obligated to do that and probably aren't even allowed to anyway.
Thing is, it's still very oddly convenient that redigit received these requests to take down SMBX in a time when he was trying to rid himself as much of the game as possible. Combining those two things with the fact that the site was not taken down until more than a year later (and this was for some reason okay with Nintendo), the fact that Redigit himself is the only one we've heard about this from, and the undisturbed prevalence of SMBX since 2013, the case looks very suspicious. You have to make heavier assumptions to believe that it was a takedown by Nintendo than if it wasn't. Redigit just could've looked up a name from a resource and then used it for one final reason to get people to stop pestering him about SMBX.

Sure, we might not be able to get direct evidence that the call actually happened, but that isn't in and of itself support for its case--it only excuses the lack of such.

I'm not saying that it's stupid or wrong to believe that the call is real, just that there's a lot of reason weighing against it as well as for it. Whether or not the call is real makes no difference in the meantime, since Nintendo's clearly not paying attention to our actions now (and, as stated, SMBX will not die once they do find out about us).
Now to end this petty falsehood

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Knux » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:02 am

There was pretty good reasoning for Nintendo wanting SMBX down specifically. What differs it from other fangames is that he was uploading and distributing their copyrighted soundtrack on an mp3 format. He got off pretty lightly, believe me.

And dude, you weren't there when this happened. I was. Many other users were. We can't prove anything, no, but it did happen. There is literally no reason for Redigit to lie about something like this.

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:51 am

AirSeus wrote:Now to end this petty falsehood

https://gamingreinvented.com/nintendoar ... omplaints/
You've linked me to an article, though just because it's a journal doesn't prove anything. It lists some other projects that were taken down, but its argument that the C&D was real just because the site was taken down isn't necessarily true. For all we know Nintendo might have waited until 2012 to even think about acquiring the site--it hasn't been proven definitively one way or the other.

Please stop trying to insult my argument. You're more than welcome to discuss with me like knux is, but trying to one-up me is childish and doesn't prove anything.
Knux wrote:There was pretty good reasoning for Nintendo wanting SMBX down specifically. What differs it from other fangames is that he was uploading and distributing their copyrighted soundtrack on an mp3 format. He got off pretty lightly, believe me.
Not really? what mostly differed it from other fangames is that he distributed it on a website that made money off its visitors. There have been plenty of other fangames that have used MP3s for their games and have been fine. I'm not sure where your argument holds ground with US law, either... why does the filetype of the music matter, of all things? Perhaps you're referring to the fact that it was distributed in downloadable format, regardless of what the exact filetype is?
There is literally no reason for Redigit to lie about something like this.
There is plenty of reason for redigit to have faked the call. He was trying to get a nagging fanbase off his back that had been bothering him for years, and nothing else thus far had worked. Yes it wasn't the best method, but redigit was certainly not one for best methods. Take a closer look at how SMBX was designed, for example. It's a mess of poorly-thought ideas and not knowing how to code something properly. It's not entirely unreasonable for him to have made a stupid decision on how to handle his fanbase when he's already made many other stupid decisions.
And dude, you weren't there when this happened. I was. Many other users were. We can't prove anything, no, but it did happen.
I understand that many users were there, and that you adamantly believe it did happen. While I wasn't there at the exact time, I did witness a lot of the discussion that happened around that time, since I searched a lot of older posts from knuckles96.prophpbb.com while it was still active. But my main point is that it doesn't truly matter--when presented with all of the same evidence, those that were active at the time tend to believe redigit, and most others don't. This means that there's a clear bias of the context regarding this information, but again, without definitive evidence it doesn't prove anything.

That's what I'm trying to get at here--we don't know. I'm not trying to definitively say that the call didn't happen, because I can't do that. Neither can anyone say that it did happen, either. But I can give reasons why it wouldn't have, and you can give reasons why it did. I don't want to take this argument any further since if we try to prove each other wrong, then we're just going to move in circles--but we can just both accept that either happening is a possibility.
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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Knux » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:08 pm

ah yes, the classic conspiracy theory "BUT WHAT IF THE CALL WAS FAKE!! WHAT IF IT WAS A PRANK!!!"

Listen, truthly I don't know exactly why Redigit took SMBX down, but I guessed his reasoning (and i do very vaguely remember him telling me in IRC the reason). Nintendo likely initially targeted SMBX's site because of the URL. My guess is that Redigit knew his game had illegal materials in it and was paranoid they'd see it, hence why he told people to stop distributing it. Because after a while he stopped caring (when Nintendo were off his back).

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:06 am

Knux wrote:ah yes, the classic conspiracy theory "BUT WHAT IF THE CALL WAS FAKE!! WHAT IF IT WAS A PRANK!!!"
I'm starting to get really tired of you guys using ad absurdum against me. I've tolerated it up until now without mentioning it directly because it's usually backed up with a reasonable point, but this is just insulting.

A conspiracy theory is only a conspiracy theory when multiple people conspire, by the way. If the call was fake, it'd be just redigit's doing.
Listen, truthly I don't know exactly why Redigit took SMBX down, but I guessed his reasoning (and i do very vaguely remember him telling me in IRC the reason). Nintendo likely initially targeted SMBX's site because of the URL. My guess is that Redigit knew his game had illegal materials in it and was paranoid they'd see it, hence why he told people to stop distributing it. Because after a while he stopped caring (when Nintendo were off his back).
Redigit said that Nintendo specifically told him to shut down both the website and SMBX in the call, as well as taking down SMBX videos on youtube. Unless there was other correspondence that he didn't mention initially, both SMB.org and SMBX were targeted at the same time.

SMBX itself is not explicitly illegal, by the way. It contains copyrighted materials, but nothing about how they're used irrevocably violates the terms of fair use as stated by American law. While this remains true, SMBX itself is in a legal grey area--the legalities that ghosthawk mentioned earlier are grounds for SMBX to be illegal, if there were ever a court case, but nothing ghost mentioned ever crossed the line from very considerable to totally illegal.

What did violate fair use was the inclusion of SMBX on the ad-ridden SMB.org, which redigit could profit from. That's not a grey area at all, and is definitely illegal. I fear for this website as well since it does have adverts on the forums, even if not the main page.
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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:26 am

Okay, so there's something I want to make clear after doing some research.

Cease and Desists exist as letters. Not as phone calls. So, whatever redigit allegedly received was not a C&D, but just the phone call approximate of one. Which is really weird, since such things almost always exist in letters (since there's probably legal implications behind that--I'm not a lawyer so I wouldn't know what they are, but still).

If he did actually get a C&D letter, though, that's not something he has to restrict from public eyes for any particular reason; he could have shown the letter without serious threat, especially since he was taking the game down anyway.
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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Knux » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:15 pm

I'm starting to get really tired of you guys using ad absurdum against me. I've tolerated it up until now without mentioning it directly because it's usually backed up with a reasonable point, but this is just insulting.

A conspiracy theory is only a conspiracy theory when multiple people conspire, by the way. If the call was fake, it'd be just redigit's doing.
Because it's something that has frequently come up over the years, people debating that it was fake, never happened, or that Redigit was prank-called. I get the notion but there's just no logical explanation as to why Redigit would take down SMBX for any other reason than what was given. It was obvious from the way he spoke back then that he was hiding details, and I draw the conclusion that he was worried they'd see the mp3 files in SMBX. By hosting that game, he is also hosting music he doesn't own.
SMBX itself is not explicitly illegal, by the way. It contains copyrighted materials, but nothing about how they're used irrevocably violates the terms of fair use as stated by American law.While this remains true, SMBX itself is in a legal grey area--the legalities that ghosthawk mentioned earlier are grounds for SMBX to be illegal, if there were ever a court case, but nothing ghost mentioned ever crossed the line from very considerable to totally illegal.
Fair use is very misunderstood. If you took all the components away that were copyrighted, then yes it would be fine. but believe me there is nothing legal about the mp3 files being uploaded for free and without permission. It's piracy, and that just becomes part of the bigger problem where users upload levels/projects every day with mp3 files. I've seen popular music by artists in levels, bossedit8 constantly has to edit the music so he won't get strikes on YouTube. As for the imagesets? well, that's something that doesn't matter. Did you know that, technically speaking, saving an image you found online is also illegal? at the end of the day, we're all breaking the law. oh well.
What did violate fair use was the inclusion of SMBX on the ad-ridden SMB.org, which redigit could profit from. That's not a grey area at all, and is definitely illegal. I fear for this website as well since it does have adverts on the forums, even if not the main page.
Joey was reminded many times to stop using ads, and IIRC there was a time where this site didn't have ads because of said warnings. perhaps the site got too big and he needs the extra money now - but maybe he could have set up a donation system instead.

Like I said before though, this site has been reported at least twice before and nothing came of it.

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:26 pm

Knux wrote:Joey was reminded many times to stop using ads, and IIRC there was a time where this site didn't have ads because of said warnings.
No there wasn't. The "reminders" were nothing more than you PMing me saying I should take down the ads.

Midnight Reality doesn't host SMBX itself so there's likely no connection between the legal risk of the program and that of this site.

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Knux » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:28 pm

Shadow Yoshi wrote:
Knux wrote:Joey was reminded many times to stop using ads, and IIRC there was a time where this site didn't have ads because of said warnings.
No there wasn't. The "reminders" were nothing more than you PMing me saying I should take down the ads.

Midnight Reality doesn't host SMBX itself so there's likely no connection between the legal risk of the program and that of this site.
well i had to remind you several times didn't i!!! ;)

The risk doesn't have to do with SMBX, it's to do with the imagesets on this site. but the odds of you getting into trouble over that are quite low

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:33 pm

Every Mario fansite uses copyrighted content and none of them get taken down. I believe this falls under fair use and/or Nintendo has no issue with it.

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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Aero » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:50 pm

Knux wrote:Fair use is very misunderstood. If you took all the components away that were copyrighted, then yes it would be fine. but believe me there is nothing legal about the mp3 files being uploaded for free and without permission. It's piracy, and that just becomes part of the bigger problem where users upload levels/projects every day with mp3 files. I've seen popular music by artists in levels, bossedit8 constantly has to edit the music so he won't get strikes on YouTube. As for the imagesets? well, that's something that doesn't matter. Did you know that, technically speaking, saving an image you found online is also illegal? at the end of the day, we're all breaking the law. oh well.
The mp3 files themselves being mp3 isn't really relevant. The mp3 file patents have mostly expired so there's no issue with using and distributing them anymore. In the EU there aren't patents on the file at all. It's free to use just like any other music file so long as the content of the audio isn't copyrighted. Point being, the copyrighted music is the problem now and the problem before was patent violations in addition to the copyright issue. And saving copyrighted images is illegal, not image saving in general. Also, fair use does not come into play in any capacity with Redigit's use or distribution of Nintendo's copyrighted work. Nothing was transformative.
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Re: Will SMBX eventually die?

Postby Knux » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:26 am

That is what I meant, GhostHawk. When I say 'mp3 files' i mean 'the mp3 files that have copyrighted music on them'


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