legacy editor!

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In your opinion is correct remove the legacy editor?

Yes
15
45%
No
18
55%
 
Total votes: 33
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legacy editor!

Postby DeuxEx » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:18 am

Hello community, we talk about the legacy editor, and ignorant I do not know what could be causing this, and from what was Smbx you could get!
So what do you think!
deux ex

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:31 am

This is a debate?

I think the problem here is pretty clear-cut since I'm pretty sure you did just look at the 2.0 beta thread and slapped this on: Until PGE can emulate all the legacy editor's features, the legacy editor shouldn't be replaced. This includes testing.

Wait, I just looked and you posted in that thread. Why did you have to make a separate poll as well?
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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Cedrik » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:33 am

I can't make levels with PGE, because it legs like hell.

The original/normal/1.3.0.1 editor was good, easy and :) .

Why I must use PGE in SMBX 2.0?

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby h2643 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:37 am

There's no point for me to use legacy editor, except for testing, so yeah. PGE is much better than SMBX anyway - more stable, doesn't lag for me unlike SMBX, and has many nice and helpful features.
Last edited by h2643 on Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:37 am

DarkMatt wrote:Until PGE can emulate all the legacy editor's features, the legacy editor shouldn't be replaced. This includes testing.
That's the point. The only reason the legacy editor exists now is so that levels can be tested. This functionality is being planned to be incorporated directly into PGE (using the SMBX engine, not the PGE engine). When this happens, there is a discussion as to whether the legacy editor should be removed entirely. Most people seem to be of the opinion that this is a good option, myself included, as the existence of the legacy editor has caused a lot of confusion.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:49 am

Hoeloe wrote:That's the point. The only reason the legacy editor exists now is so that levels can be tested. This functionality is being planned to be incorporated directly into PGE (using the SMBX engine, not the PGE engine). When this happens, there is a discussion as to whether the legacy editor should be removed entirely. Most people seem to be of the opinion that this is a good option, myself included, as the existence of the legacy editor has caused a lot of confusion.
Yes. That's, what I'm saying.
Cedrik wrote:I can't make levels with PGE, because it legs like hell.

The original/normal/1.3.0.1 editor was good, easy and :) .

Why I must use PGE in SMBX 2.0?
This is a point to bring up however: compatibility. Some people might just be unable to use PGE and would rather prefer SMBX.

In the interests of keeping SMBX open to everyone, you really should at least make the legacy editor an option, even if you have to bury it over convoluted ways to use it. (Which by the way, why?)
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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:06 am

DarkMatt wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:That's the point. The only reason the legacy editor exists now is so that levels can be tested. This functionality is being planned to be incorporated directly into PGE (using the SMBX engine, not the PGE engine). When this happens, there is a discussion as to whether the legacy editor should be removed entirely. Most people seem to be of the opinion that this is a good option, myself included, as the existence of the legacy editor has caused a lot of confusion.
Yes. That's, what I'm saying.
I know, but this poll isn't about removing the legacy editor right now. We're only thinking about removing it after testing capabilities are added to PGE.
DarkMatt wrote:
Cedrik wrote:I can't make levels with PGE, because it legs like hell.

The original/normal/1.3.0.1 editor was good, easy and :) .

Why I must use PGE in SMBX 2.0?
This is a point to bring up however: compatibility. Some people might just be unable to use PGE and would rather prefer SMBX.

In the interests of keeping SMBX open to everyone, you really should at least make the legacy editor an option, even if you have to bury it over convoluted ways to use it. (Which by the way, why?)
This sort of thing is, oddly enough, a reason why we want to discourage the legacy editor. The legacy editor is unsupported. If there are problems with it (which there are, and many of them) we cannot fix them. With PGE, these issues can be fixed. With a bit more detail on where the problem is, I bet the lag issue can be ironed out pretty quickly. I suggest speaking to one of the PGE devs about that, by the way, and helping them get some diagnostic information so they can work out what's going on.

The fact of the matter is that the only way PGE loses out to the legacy editor is that it doesn't currently support level testing. If that is fixed, the legacy editor will be completely obsolete. On top of that, the fact that it exists causes a lot of confusion for those new to SMBX, and it's far better to keep all the tools together in one cohesive place rather than have them scattered across various outdated elements.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Wohlstand » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:46 pm

Cedrik wrote:I can't make levels with PGE, because it legs like hell.
Disable animation ("View" -> "animation") to take boost up if you have bad performance with your video card. Animation is not needed in the editor except you need to look how element will animate on a level, but if you has slow performance, you must disable animation thing. Also you must have most fresh version (now I'm working with optimizations and so, it will work much better than now, and even now it works better than before!).
Why you should use new editor: all impossible features are possible only with PGE, customizable tilesets (allows you make your own convenient itemsets to don't be stricted with pre-made tilesets like in legacy editor), also PGE Editor avoids bugs which you would take in the SMBX Editor, for example, while you placing a vines. PGE Editor has multi-selection, full-featured history manager, clipboard (to copy-paste), Multi-document interface (allows you to have opened multiple files at same time!), ability to save not only for SMBX 1.3: you even can save file for any old SMBX too, include 1.0! With multi-selection and context menu you can apply setting, change or create new layer for all selected elements, transform elements into another ID, apply settings for all elements in a selection group, etc. Legacy editor is no more supported and it's impossible to improve it. If you have a trouble with performance of PGE - is possible to resolve it, now I doing optimization works to resolve lots of troubles and implement support of custom txt's for all other elements (blocks, BGO's, backgrounds, etc.) PGE is open source while SMBX with it's legacy editor is closed source and all changes are dumb workarounds made at LunaLUA side :P

Anyway, here is more detail comparison: http://engine.wohlnet.ru/pgewiki/Editors_comparison
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Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:24 pm

Hoeloe wrote:This sort of thing is, oddly enough, a reason why we want to discourage the legacy editor. The legacy editor is unsupported. If there are problems with it (which there are, and many of them) we cannot fix them. With PGE, these issues can be fixed. With a bit more detail on where the problem is, I bet the lag issue can be ironed out pretty quickly. I suggest speaking to one of the PGE devs about that, by the way, and helping them get some diagnostic information so they can work out what's going on.

The fact of the matter is that the only way PGE loses out to the legacy editor is that it doesn't currently support level testing. If that is fixed, the legacy editor will be completely obsolete. On top of that, the fact that it exists causes a lot of confusion for those new to SMBX, and it's far better to keep all the tools together in one cohesive place rather than have them scattered across various outdated elements.
I'm afraid you don't get to decide when a feature is obsolete. Only by providing a better alternative and easing your target audience into using it can you safely cut the old feature out. (This is actually what I think is happening right now, but yeah, testing from PGE, not the most intuitive thing right now.) There's always going to be the skeptics who won't move forward or don't see any reason to, and you don't convince them on the fly with some magic words. I'm sure we'll get to the time where we can kiss SMBX's editor goodbye, but it's not before PGE can adequately replace it, which it can't right now.

Also why would I be the one to speak to the PGE devs? I'm just here to contribute my noggin on the matter of, "Should we remove SMBX's editor from 2.0 even though PGE can't test like it can yet?"

Then again this is one of the reasons why we're calling 2.0 a beta right now. Also, I'm still gonna wonder why 2.0 and not some sensible number or, hell, a different title to denote that this is a fork of SMBX? Kids these days.
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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:36 pm

DarkMatt wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:This sort of thing is, oddly enough, a reason why we want to discourage the legacy editor. The legacy editor is unsupported. If there are problems with it (which there are, and many of them) we cannot fix them. With PGE, these issues can be fixed. With a bit more detail on where the problem is, I bet the lag issue can be ironed out pretty quickly. I suggest speaking to one of the PGE devs about that, by the way, and helping them get some diagnostic information so they can work out what's going on.

The fact of the matter is that the only way PGE loses out to the legacy editor is that it doesn't currently support level testing. If that is fixed, the legacy editor will be completely obsolete. On top of that, the fact that it exists causes a lot of confusion for those new to SMBX, and it's far better to keep all the tools together in one cohesive place rather than have them scattered across various outdated elements.
I'm afraid you don't get to decide when a feature is obsolete. Only by providing a better alternative and easing your target audience into using it can you safely cut the old feature out. (This is actually what I think is happening right now, but yeah, testing from PGE, not the most intuitive thing right now.) There's always going to be the skeptics who won't move forward or don't see any reason to, and you don't convince them on the fly with some magic words. I'm sure we'll get to the time where we can kiss SMBX's editor goodbye, but it's not before PGE can adequately replace it, which it can't right now.
Please read what I've said. No-one is saying to remove the legacy editor right now. The only suggestion is removing the editor WHEN PGE CAN REPLICATE THE TESTING FUNCTIONALITY. I am literally discussing with other developers RIGHT NOW about implementing this feature.
DarkMatt wrote: Also why would I be the one to speak to the PGE devs? I'm just here to contribute my noggin on the matter of, "Should we remove SMBX's editor from 2.0 even though PGE can't test like it can yet?"

Then again this is one of the reasons why we're calling 2.0 a beta right now. Also, I'm still gonna wonder why 2.0 and not some sensible number or, hell, a different title to denote that this is a fork of SMBX? Kids these days.
I was referring to the other guy who was having lag issues with PGE, whom you quoted.

And yeah, version numbering doesn't just count up every new version and roll over when it hits 10 (in fact, version numbers like 1.2.11 are fairly common). It basically works like this:

A.B.C.D

D = quick hotfixes for bugs and very minor changes
C = improvements to existing features and less urgent bugfixes
B = upgraded features and other improvements
A = major restructuring

This is called 2.0 because the way the engine works is fundamentally different from 1.3.0.1. LunaLua being built into the engine is a major restructuring, and allows for a new major version number.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:42 pm

No need to shout just because you are incapable of understanding what I said.
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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:57 pm

No need for the harshness, DarkMatt.

Hoeloe: I believe the point DarkMatt is really making may be that we should have a period of time where both editors are supported even when PGE can do better. We're going to support it when 2.0 is initially released (simply because PGE won't be developed enough yet to warrant removal of the legacy editor), but once PGE reaches the point of surpassing the legacy editor we should still support both for a little while. DarkMatt is right - there's probably going to be people that don't want to try the new editor for no good reason. We have to give people a period of time to adjust and switch over.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:03 pm

Joey wrote:No need for the harshness, DarkMatt.

Hoeloe: I believe the point DarkMatt is really making may be that we should have a period of time where both editors are supported even when PGE can do better. We're going to support it when 2.0 is initially released (simply because PGE won't be developed enough yet to warrant removal of the legacy editor), but once PGE reaches the point of surpassing the legacy editor we should still support both for a little while. DarkMatt is right - there's probably going to be people that don't want to try the new editor for no good reason. We have to give people a period of time to adjust and switch over.
Well, there's been a lot of discussion about it, and honestly it is possible that testing will be available very soon, if possible before the release of 2.0. I believe the suggestion was to remove the "open legacy editor" button on the launcher, but have a config file somewhere that allows the legacy editor to be used, though it is a little more out of the way. My concern is that quite a few people have been confused in the beta by the existence of two editors in the same application, and have been asking for fixes and changes to the legacy editor, which is never going to happen. By putting the legacy editor in a less front-facing location, it will encourage more people to use PGE, and get the best experience of 2.0, and those who still absolutely need to use the legacy for whatever reason can be directed to the config option to enable it. If we leave it as-is, people will continue to use the legacy editor, and the transition to PGE will never quite occur.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby fireflower30 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:28 pm

What does the PGE Editor look like? not getting the open beta because mega.nz fucks with me
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Re: legacy editor!

Postby DeuxEx » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:31 pm

I agree on what has been said, it is honestly prefer PGE. I think the problem is that many are accustomed to the old system, you have a little afraid to try something that is different. I hope that when PGE will have the most stable structure is accepted, is the true successor, is not a smbx 1.4.1, which for us is a little stranger. I know SMBX Since she left the first version, it is the times have also changed. Like a Super Mario Maker (which I have), that becomes a bit monotonous, instead Smbx is more creative levels! as I think that a scroll in mario makers do not need it. That said I think so.
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Re: legacy editor!

Postby TDK » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:17 pm

fireflower30 wrote:What does the PGE Editor look like? not getting the open beta because mega.nz fucks with me
Read this

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby PixelPest » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:21 pm

There's a Mediafire link as well in another post in the SMBX 2.0 topic.
DeuxEx: PGE only has the Alpha testing built in and it's not very good.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:11 pm

PixelPest wrote: DeuxEx: PGE only has the Alpha testing built in and it's not very good.
At the moment, but the plan is to add full SMBX testing to PGE, and then deprecate the legacy editor.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Saltlord » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:18 pm

I still don't get why people want the legacy editor to be included in the full version of 2.0 (or when we have full functional PGE testing. I mean, the legacy editor is basically a downgrade compared to PGE. We should finally lose our fear and try something new. That's my opinion about the situation.

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Re: legacy editor!

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:27 pm

Gonna give my two cents about the legacy editor:

I don't plan on making the switch to PGE not because I'm afraid of trying something new, but because I'm already used to the legacy editor. I know how it works and how to get around any problems it may have (like the vine bug: one click (as opposed to a click-and-drag) will always result in only one climbable NPC being placed). With PGE, everything is in a different place and works differently. I actually did try to use it once to copy a section from one level to another only to find out that it was a hassle just to copy one section to another section in the same level (the section had to be "deleted" first, and even if you so much as take a glimpse at an empty, unused section, you have to delete it before you can copy another section on it). It's much easier for me and quicker for everyone if I make my levels in the legacy editor than if I took the time to learn a different editor and make my levels in that instead.

Plus, there's still the whole "PGE can't test levels" issue.

Sure, when that's fixed, I don't mind all of you trying to indoctrinate everyone into using PGE, but I'm gonna stick to the legacy editor since it's what I personally am used to and can work with. Yeah, it can do a few more things, but having to learn a new, complex program would just take away time I could be using to make levels; it's basically the same reason I don't plan on learning Lua scripting.
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