legacy editor!

General discussion about Super Mario Bros. X.

In your opinion is correct remove the legacy editor?

Yes
15
45%
No
18
55%
 
Total votes: 33
Enjl
Cute Yoshi Egg
Cute Yoshi Egg
Posts: 8232
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:58 pm
Flair: Orphion Egamalenitar Osmos IV, Esq.

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Enjl » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:10 pm

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:I actually did try to use it once to copy a section from one level to another only to find out that it was a hassle just to copy one section to another section in the same level (the section had to be "deleted" first, and even if you so much as take a glimpse at an empty, unused section, you have to delete it before you can copy another section on it). It's much easier for me and quicker for everyone if I make my levels in the legacy editor than if I took the time to learn a different editor and make my levels in that instead..
Here's how I copypaste in PGE:
I box-drag over all the tiles I want to copy
I hit CTRL and C
Then I move to another section
I hit CTRL and V
And then I left-click where I want to place everything and fine-tune the placement by dragging the selection.
Please do not use any of my assets (graphics, scripts) in works affiliated with the Novaverse. This applies to the original releases of those assets as well as any third-party variations (recolours, script alterations). Thank you.
________________________________________________________

The ABC of Creation
________________________________________________________
Image

User avatar
Lapuente
Cheep-Cheep
Cheep-Cheep
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:18 pm

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Lapuente » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:16 pm

I love the legacy editor, the way it is, everything is perfect (except the lack of undo). so I hope they don't get rid of it. I will still use it in the case though, however, if someone could maybe, replicate it and update it... well, that's another story
Image

User avatar
underFlo
Mario
Mario
Posts: 4481
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:44 am
Flair: sup im lesbiab
Current Project: actually nothing i lied to you
Chat Username: underFlo
Contact:

Re: legacy editor!

Postby underFlo » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:20 am

Well PGE is like that, actually.

I think it's kinda silly to not even put in the time to learn PGE. It takes a maximum of 15 minutes to learn and then you're way faster since you can use copy/paste, undo, and don't have to switch between all the different tileset boxes.

Additionally, PGE can actually improve w/ feedback, as it's still being worked on. For example, the one thing I miss from the SMBX editor is easily getting the size of one screen in SMBX, but afaik Wohl already said that he'll implement such a thing.
Also, even now, you can test PGE levels in SMBX just by pressing a button if you have LunaDLL or LunaLua (or 2.0, for that matter), and you just have to switch back to the PGE tab after testing. And with the method the 2.0 team wants to implemen, you don't even have to do that. It's literally like testing in SMBX.

tl;dr imo you should stop living in the past and get the PGE editor bc the SMBX one won't receive any updates and is really bad compared to PGE.
im a girl yo

User avatar
Wohlstand
Boom Boom
Boom Boom
Posts: 1770
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:44 pm
Flair: 狐エンジニア
Current Project: Moondust (PGE Project)
Chat Username: Wohlstand#4881
Contact:

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Wohlstand » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:08 am

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:I actually did try to use it once to copy a section from one level to another only to find out that it was a hassle just to copy one section to another section in the same level (the section had to be "deleted" first, and even if you so much as take a glimpse at an empty, unused section, you have to delete it before you can copy another section on it). It's much easier for me and quicker for everyone if I make my levels in the legacy editor than if I took the time to learn a different editor and make my levels in that instead..
Oh, I think, I would make "soft" warning instead forcing you do "deletion" yourself: If you will try to clone section into one of "busy" sections, you will take a warning with a question where you should confirm deletion of target section before cloning will be done. So, it will be like to "overwrite" action. Section is "busy" since you tried to switch it, even to check what inside. Deletion just removes all elements inside boundaries and clears settings box like you never opened that section.
PGE Project, my Media and supported projects: show
Support me on the Patreon
Image

PGE Project
PGE Project SMBX Topic
PGE Project Official Site and forums
Download fresh experimental builds HERE!

I'm support:
Lowser's Conquest by Sednaiur

Image
P.S. I don't like huge signatures which would be annoying, therefore I put huge content into spoilers

Kuribo
Rex
Rex
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:36 am

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Kuribo » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:00 am

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Gonna give my two cents about the legacy editor:

I don't plan on making the switch to PGE not because I'm afraid of trying something new, but because I'm already used to the legacy editor. I know how it works and how to get around any problems it may have (like the vine bug: one click (as opposed to a click-and-drag) will always result in only one climbable NPC being placed). With PGE, everything is in a different place and works differently. I actually did try to use it once to copy a section from one level to another only to find out that it was a hassle just to copy one section to another section in the same level (the section had to be "deleted" first, and even if you so much as take a glimpse at an empty, unused section, you have to delete it before you can copy another section on it). It's much easier for me and quicker for everyone if I make my levels in the legacy editor than if I took the time to learn a different editor and make my levels in that instead.

Plus, there's still the whole "PGE can't test levels" issue.

Sure, when that's fixed, I don't mind all of you trying to indoctrinate everyone into using PGE, but I'm gonna stick to the legacy editor since it's what I personally am used to and can work with. Yeah, it can do a few more things, but having to learn a new, complex program would just take away time I could be using to make levels; it's basically the same reason I don't plan on learning Lua scripting.
If you've ever copied and pasted icons on your desktop, you should have no trouble copying sections in PGE. It's very simple and intuitive. In fact if you choose not to use any of PGE's additional features, it's functionally the same editor you're used to. There's no difference aside from cosmetics. Take ten minutes to learn it and you'll never want to use the old editor again.

I don't see what reason there is to remove the legacy editor. Somebody said it was "confusing" but I don't see how so. It has a separate button on the launcher clearly denoting what it is, so where does the confusion come from?

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:04 am

Kuribo wrote: I don't see what reason there is to remove the legacy editor. Somebody said it was "confusing" but I don't see how so. It has a separate button on the launcher clearly denoting what it is, so where does the confusion come from?
The fact that there are two editors at all is confusing, especially when to test levels, you need to open the other editor, but ignore 90% of the features, make sure to click "please don't save this level" when testing or risk messing up certain things, etc. It's strictly worse than the PGE editor, and the only reason it's there now is because PGE can't yet test levels. When SMBX testing is added to the PGE editor, the legacy editor will be entirely unsupported and best to not have people opening by mistake (which people have done).

Kuribo
Rex
Rex
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:36 am

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Kuribo » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:21 am

Hoeloe wrote:
Kuribo wrote: I don't see what reason there is to remove the legacy editor. Somebody said it was "confusing" but I don't see how so. It has a separate button on the launcher clearly denoting what it is, so where does the confusion come from?
The fact that there are two editors at all is confusing, especially when to test levels, you need to open the other editor, but ignore 90% of the features, make sure to click "please don't save this level" when testing or risk messing up certain things, etc. It's strictly worse than the PGE editor, and the only reason it's there now is because PGE can't yet test levels. When SMBX testing is added to the PGE editor, the legacy editor will be entirely unsupported and best to not have people opening by mistake (which people have done).
Why is having two different editors confusing? One of them says "new editor" and one says "legacy editor," it doesn't get much more simple and clear-cut than that. The fact that PGE lacks a proper test function is more inconvenient than confusing. Once that changes the old editor will indeed be obsolete, but I still don't see much of a reason to remove it. It's a harmless feature.

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:47 am

Kuribo wrote: Why is having two different editors confusing? One of them says "new editor" and one says "legacy editor," it doesn't get much more simple and clear-cut than that. The fact that PGE lacks a proper test function is more inconvenient than confusing. Once that changes the old editor will indeed be obsolete, but I still don't see much of a reason to remove it. It's a harmless feature.
It's not confusing to me or you, but many new SMBX 2.0 users have been confused about this. Not everyone knows what "legacy" means with respect to software, and the fact that there are two options is awkward. If you're trying to work out which to use to make levels for SMBX, and one opens a window labelled "SMBX" and one opens a window labelled "PGE", I can understand people being confused about which to use.

Besides, when PGE can replicate testing, the plan is to remove the legacy editor from the main menu, but potentially allow an option to re-enable it. We want to discourage the use of the legacy editor, as it is not only strictly worse than PGE, but also can cause issues because of how it's structured. Levels previously saved in PGE can lose some features if saved in the legacy editor for example, and certain things behave differently in the legacy editor from the final game, which can cause serious bugs (see MAGLX2 59th place. The bug in that level was caused by an inconsistency between the legacy editor and the game).

User avatar
DarkMatt
Banned
Posts: 1144
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:08 am

Hoeloe wrote:It's not confusing to me or you, but many new SMBX 2.0 users have been confused about this.
Source this claim. I'm not just going to take your word for it. (Though when we get right now to it, the legacy editor isn't the only thing confusing about 2.0.)

Hell, I've seen how bad English gets in this community and even they would probably understand that legacy editor is old and PGE is new, and the optimal choice is PGE. It's not even a matter of looking at the titles, it's a matter of trying one, then the other, and understanding which one's better.
Hoeloe wrote:Besides, when PGE can replicate testing, the plan is to remove the legacy editor from the main menu, but potentially allow an option to re-enable it.
Why are you even still trying to convince people that PGE is better if you're getting exactly what you want and I'm okay with that, and would believe everyone else would be? Who is disagreeing with you?
[center]From illusion to truth. From darkness to light. From doom to eternity.[/center]

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:17 am

DarkMatt wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:It's not confusing to me or you, but many new SMBX 2.0 users have been confused about this.
Source this claim. I'm not just going to take your word for it. (Though when we get right now to it, the legacy editor isn't the only thing confusing about 2.0.)

Hell, I've seen how bad English gets in this community and even they would probably understand that legacy editor is old and PGE is new, and the optimal choice is PGE. It's not even a matter of looking at the titles, it's a matter of trying one, then the other, and understanding which one's better.
The SMBX2.0 thread on this forum has had a lot of confusion surrounding the legacy editor. The other confusing things about 2.0 are also being worked on. There is constant heavy discussion among the developers as to how to reduce confusion and make SMBX2.0 as easy as possible to use, and one of those ways is to remove the legacy editor and grant testing functionality to PGE.
DarkMatt wrote:Who is disagreeing with you?
All of the people in this thread asking why the legacy editor should be removed. Let alone the fact that the poll is currently tied both ways.

User avatar
litchh
Koopa Shell
Koopa Shell
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:10 am

Re: legacy editor!

Postby litchh » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:26 am

Legacy editor is still usable to test levels.
Besides It shows backgrounds how it looks in game! I often watch how backgrounds look in the current level and edit them sometimes.

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:32 am

litchh wrote:Legacy editor is still usable to test levels.
Besides It shows backgrounds how it looks in game! I often watch how backgrounds look in the current level and edit them sometimes.
This is the point. This is the whole point.

The reason I continually restate myself is because people seem to continually misunderstand what's being suggested here, so I'm going to post it in large letters to make it totally clear, as I am likely not going to be able to keep up to date on this discussion over the next week or so.

[list]
[*]SMBX Testing functionality is planned to be implemented directly into the PGE editor, making testing easier than it is currently even without the legacy editor
[*]When this happens, the legacy editor will have no benefits over the PGE editor
[*]The legacy editor is missing a lot of features that PGE supports
[*]The legacy editor has a lot of glitches and inconsistencies that will not be present in the PGE version
[*]The legacy editor is unsupported, and will not receive any fixes or updates
[*]There has been some confusion over the fact that there are two editors presented by the launcher
[*]All of this taken into account, the plan is to remove the option to open the legacy editor from the launcher ONLY once the PGE editor can test SMBX levels. Until then, the legacy editor will remain on the launcher[/list][/b]

User avatar
DarkMatt
Banned
Posts: 1144
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:38 am

And do you know why people are voting no?

Here's some insight: the reason why I'm voting no is because I'm attaching a note to my vote that says, "Not right now." Not to mention valid reasons other people have given like, "Because I'm used to the legacy editor," and, "I see no reason to switch so why should i?"

You have your explanation. You are wasting your time trying to change what can't be changed.

Also, when I say source, I mean show me evidence, not point me to where I can find it. Back up your claim. I'm not gonna do it for you.
[center]From illusion to truth. From darkness to light. From doom to eternity.[/center]

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:42 am

DarkMatt wrote:I'm attaching a note to my vote that says, "Not right now."


And this is entirely my point. No-one is suggesting removing the legacy editor right now. The suggestion is simply whether it should be removed eventually.
DarkMatt wrote: Not to mention other valid reasons like, "Because I'm used to the legacy editor," and, "I see no reason to switch so why should i?"
I'd actually argue these are not very good reasons. The first is a simple "it takes 10 minutes to learn and your productivity will increase by about 10x, yes it's new, but it's unquestionably better and will be worth your time to make the switch."

For the second, you've actually explained why I'm continuing this. I'm trying to explain to those people who see no reason to switch what the reasons actually are, and why switching will be a good thing.

You seem to be under the impression that I have some sort of agenda that I'm trying to push, and this is not the case. I simply want to make sure that SMBX 2.0 is the best it can be, and to do so, I want to make sure everyone fully understands the situation before rejecting the suggestion outright. That's all I'm trying to do here.

User avatar
DarkMatt
Banned
Posts: 1144
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:47 am

Hoeloe wrote:I'd actually argue these are not very good reasons.
I dunno if you have been reading the entirety of my posts or not, but this is something I pointed out.
DarkMatt wrote:I'm afraid you don't get to decide when a feature is obsolete.
If someone wishes to sit back on what they know, you are to respect that. It's their choice, not yours. All trying to force them to change will do is get you chewed out for being pushy and annoying. If you want them to move, then the best use of your time is to demonstrate how easy it is.

You do not get people to go from potato chips to fruit just because you force it on them. Human beings do not work that way, and you are not their dad.
[center]From illusion to truth. From darkness to light. From doom to eternity.[/center]

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:51 am

DarkMatt wrote: You do not get people to go from potato chips to fruit just because you force it on them. Human beings do not work that way, and you are not their dad.
If I wanted to just force this on people, this thread would not exist. I'm not trying to "force people to go from potato chips to fruit", I'm simply trying to explain what the benefits of doing so would be, and why it's being suggested in the first place. If we wanted to force change, we wouldn't be asking for people's views at all, and would just implement the change. The SMBX 2.0 devs want to hear people's opinions on this, but from an informed perspective, because we have heard a lot of responses saying things along the lines of "but if you remove the legacy editor we won't be able to test levels", which is not what is being suggested. What I'm trying to avoid is someone suggesting that we should maybe try fruit instead of chips, and getting a response along the lines of "no thanks I don't like carrots".

User avatar
DarkMatt
Banned
Posts: 1144
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:56 am

Hoeloe wrote:If I wanted to just force this on people, this thread would not exist.
Now you're thinking you made this thread? Seriously, kid, calm down.
Hoeloe wrote:I'm simply trying to explain what the benefits of doing so would be, and why it's being suggested in the first place.
You've done so already. You don't need to strain yourself any further.
Hoeloe wrote:The SMBX 2.0 devs want to hear people's opinions on this, but from an informed perspective,
I dunno about everyone else, but I've already done that.
Hoeloe wrote:What I'm trying to avoid is someone suggesting that we should maybe try fruit instead of chips, and getting a response along the lines of "no thanks I don't like carrots".
Too bad.

It's their choice.

You've tried. No need to phrase it differently in a vein attempt to get people to change their mind after they told you, "No," again.
[center]From illusion to truth. From darkness to light. From doom to eternity.[/center]

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:02 am

DarkMatt wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:If I wanted to just force this on people, this thread would not exist.
Now you're thinking you made this thread? Seriously, kid, calm down.
I'm not saying I made the thread, just that the developers wouldn't be here talking to people.
DarkMatt wrote: Too bad.

It's their choice.

You've tried. No need to phrase it differently in a vein attempt to get people to change their mind after they told you, "No," again.
Technically, yes it's people's choice not to be informed, but that doesn't mean the information shouldn't be supplied. A lot of people have said "no" because they believed the plan was to remove testing functionality, which is not happening.

Look, this little feud isn't helpful to anyone. All I'm trying to do is help people to understand what is being suggested, and what the benefits of PGE are over the legacy editor. If you're not happy with the idea, that's fine, but that doesn't mean everyone else shares your views.

User avatar
DarkMatt
Banned
Posts: 1144
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Re: legacy editor!

Postby DarkMatt » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:07 am

Hoeloe wrote:Technically, yes it's people's choice not to be informed, but that doesn't mean the information shouldn't be supplied.
Which you've done. I never had a problem with you supplying the information. You're just going above and beyond supplying it and trying to shove it down people's throats. My point is to keep in mind that, in the end, even with information, they might just choose not to anyway. If that's the case, then that's the case.

I'm waiting on you, Hoeloe. I was expecting this to take 1 post to get this point across, not 7.
[center]From illusion to truth. From darkness to light. From doom to eternity.[/center]

User avatar
Hoeloe
Grinder
Grinder
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:18 pm
Flair: The Codehaus Girl
Current Project: A2XT Episode 2

Re: legacy editor!

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:24 am

DarkMatt wrote:You're just going above and beyond supplying it and trying to shove it down people's throats.
Responding to people's concerns is not "shoving it down their throats". This thread is, above all, a discussion. There's no discussion if people state their viewpoint and leave, discussion invites response.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], King Mario and 11 guests