Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

General discussion about Super Mario Bros. X.
Sux
Mega Mole
Mega Mole
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:43 pm

Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Sux » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:03 pm

Just a question...
I realized this when I came back to the forum
I know there's amazing linear levels and amazing non-linear levels, but I felt some dislike from the users against expansive levels.
Not complaining, only a doubt

Image


User avatar
Zeldamaster12
Cid
Cid
Posts: 4099
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:43 pm
Flair: stop looking at my flair dangit

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Zeldamaster12 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:10 pm

I enjoy both, so I personally don't understand the big deal about non-linear levels. Backtracking and exploration are always components I like in levels, but I also like to take a step back on occassion and play linear levels.
Image

User avatar
arcade999
Kamikaze Koopa
Kamikaze Koopa
Posts: 1344
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby arcade999 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:22 pm

I personally think that most non linear levels are just big levels with a bunch of switches to activate, and yeah, most of the time, it is VERY repetitive, wich is sad, since these levels are having a lot of potential.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
check out my (shitpost) youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-fkps ... oRYc6XtNxQ
check out my discord server: https://discord.gg/nAjhRGb
check out my forum: http://arcade999forum.freeforums.net/
StickGuyGamez wrote:BRING ME BACK TO PENIS
Super Nick Bros X wrote:bruh
RTisBack wrote:Jesus christ isn't a lord/god you piece of human with no brain, and i mean that allah is the only one god.
Pop Yoshi Bros wrote:
arcade999 wrote:do using ms paint make me a bad human being?
No. It makes you a great veteran and someone who deserves respect...

unless you use Windows 7 paint
Noodle wrote:Danny is a crapposter. (I was in school when I typed this)
Snessy the duck wrote:
Electriking wrote:What the fuck is going on with this topic?
I have no idea. This guy honestly seems like a bot.

User avatar
Uzendayo
Kamikaze Koopa
Kamikaze Koopa
Posts: 1242
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Uzendayo » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:33 pm

Oversaturation with little variety
Spoiler: show
I placed 18th in CC8,
I placed 8th in CC11, and I
Won 1st in the First Vanilla Level Competition
┬┴┬┴┤(・_├┬┴┬┴┬┴┬┴┤(・_├┬┴┬┴┬┴┬┴┤(・_├┬┴┬┴┬┴┬┴┤(・_├┬┴┬┴┬┴┬┴┤(・_├┬┴┬┴
You might know me as Epoch
STOP INSTIGATING
STOP INSTIGATING
STOP INSTIGATING
STOP INSTIGATING

User avatar
RudeGuy
Luigi
Luigi
Posts: 4986
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:36 am
Flair: local guy

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby RudeGuy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:58 pm

the people who make non linear levels usually are bad at making them. also i honestly prefer linear levels.
im bored

User avatar
Quantix
Ripper II
Ripper II
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:04 pm

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Quantix » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:17 pm

I don't hate the concept of non-linear SMBX levels, but I swear some users don't know what "non-linear" means.
viewtopic.php?f=69&p=286856#p286855

Generic Quote Collection:
Spoiler: show
Skant wrote:The egg will fuck you if you don't catch it
rockythechao wrote:f6 is an over-the-counter generic run-of-the-mill store-brand bootleg knockoff f5
some people wrote:The021stYoshiFromThe021stCentury: Who would win, a tophat wearing a tophat, or hoeloe wearing hoeloe?
Hoeloe: yes
glitch4: f6
rockythecomet: that's a trick question
rockythecomet: a top hat wearing a hoeloe
Waffles & Stuff (timocomlita) wrote:No matter what you do, it's impossible to get rid of the impossible.
Petrifying wrote:Piss off with your sex doll SMBX 2.0
Enjl wrote:it puts a twist on classic 4 step level design which i like to call "2 and a half steps backwards design"

Sux
Mega Mole
Mega Mole
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Sux » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:31 pm

RudeGuy07 wrote:the people who make non linear levels usually are bad at making them. also i honestly prefer linear levels.
I think the same thing about linear levels. Expansive levels is harder to do but with a good gimmick it can be amazing. I do non-linear and try to put something unique.

Image


Enjl
Cute Yoshi Egg
Cute Yoshi Egg
Posts: 8877
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:58 pm
Flair: Orphion Egamalenitar Osmos IV, Esq.

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Enjl » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:58 pm

Sux wrote:
RudeGuy07 wrote:the people who make non linear levels usually are bad at making them. also i honestly prefer linear levels.
I think the same thing about linear levels. Expansive levels is harder to do but with a good gimmick it can be amazing. I do non-linear and try to put something unique.
nonlinear is easy to fuck up and i honestly haven't seen it done well in the past 6 years of playing smbx
picking an idea and going nuts with it is infinitely easier in a linear environment

it's not the concept that's hated on, it's the product that tends to suck
Ideas are useless if you can't make them real.
Image

All my assets from packs and episodes are free to use for non-Novaverse levels and projects, as long as proper credit is given.

User avatar
TLtimelord
Red Yoshi Egg
Red Yoshi Egg
Posts: 2620
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:16 pm
Flair: Info under raps

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby TLtimelord » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:00 pm

Usually they're really unfocused and repetitive. The products, not the concept. Think of non-linear as multiple paths or open world. Those concepts are really hard to pull off.
The wall on which the prophets wrote
Is cracking at the seams
Upon the instruments of death
The sunlight brightly gleams
When every man is torn apart
With nightmares and with dreams
Will no one lay the laurel wreath
When silence drowns the screams

User avatar
rixithechao
Pokey
Pokey
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:00 am
Contact:

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby rixithechao » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:21 pm

I'd love to see more full-on metroidvanias or collectathon episodes. It seems like most attempts fall through due to requiring prolonged, involved design efforts and/or hitting the limits of the tech at the time/the devs' understanding of it, but I'd say the engine is more than capable of producing full nonlinear episodes in its current state. There just needs to be the right amount of dev power, design sense and programming knowhow behind such a project.

Saving progress outside of non-exit stars and switch blocks has been possible with LunaLua since MaGLX2 -- the winning level of that contest used it, iirc. But the means of doing so at the time were rather unwieldy, and while Beta 4 will be replacing them with a simpler and more streamlined option it's still Lua so folks who don't want to learn how to code won't be taking advantage of it. Once we get PGE editor plugins, maybe we could set up some kind of in-editor event flag system based on events or something...
Some people just cannot avoid the ads on MediaFire, even with both common sense and popup blockers. It's always a good idea to provide an alternate download link with an ad-free file host such as Dropbox or Google Drive.

Also play Bug Fables, the devs have confirmed that they got their royalties from Dangen and the game is really freaking good.

Aero
Administrator
Posts: 4696
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:51 pm

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Aero » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:50 pm

Sux wrote:Just a question...
I realized this when I came back to the forum
I know there's amazing linear levels and amazing non-linear levels, but I felt some dislike from the users against expansive levels.
Not complaining, only a doubt
Can you give any specific examples of people hating/disliking non-linear levels?

User avatar
underFlo
Mario
Mario
Posts: 4464
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:44 am
Flair: sup im lesbiab
Contact:

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby underFlo » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:05 pm

The issue is that good level progression is way way harder to do with nonlinear levels, and most of the people that do nonlinear levels these days fail precisely because the designer just doesnt get the progression right.

Also, nonlinearity in terms of smbx is usually very different from the things that make a metroidvania unique. Smbx nonlinearity mostly boils down to "oh boy you pressed a switch... i wonder if that did something somewhere else in the level" so you backtrack and wow! there's new stuff!

there're of course some ways that this kind of backtracking can be used well. For instance, the level layout and new NPC placements could be used to present a vastly different take on an existing idea.

One very basic idea would be ascending a vertical section with the help of springboards, but they're laid out in a way that makes going down impossible, so on your way back you may use a new sidepath to destroy some of these (ie lining up a springboard destroyer laser TM to destroy a row of them). Now, how well each of those gimmicks would actually work I am not sure about, this was just an idea I had in mind. Either way, I am not sure just how well the individual-challenge-based gameplay of Mario would fare with more traditional Metroidvania design. Just essentially mirroring an already rompy section isn't really all that exciting and not that much fun to play.
im a girl yo

Zha Hong Lang
Lakitu
Lakitu
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:14 am

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:29 pm

There are multiple types of non-linearity, so here's my opinion about each of them in regards to smbx:

1. singular, but curved level path.

Most people don't call this non-linear, but it's worth pointing out because this is a particular aspect that can either be done to aid the level, or it just looks nice and doesn't add any value. Worst case scenario would be something like a level where the path goes over a previous section of the level, and the player can fall down and has to repeat an entire section of the level over again. Some levels can have problems using this particular aspect of non-linear level design because of that, but usually it's not a big issue.

2. Do the things to proceed (hit switches to reveal switch blocks, hit a TNT to do something, etc etc)

Probably my least favorite kind. This type of level design has not only been done to death, but often people just make this design trope either tedious, frustrating, or both. A level may force the player to go aaaall the way back to the continuing point if once they do the thing which allows them to proceed. Some levels remedy this problem by making the thing that they did change the layout of the path they're treading back on, but many levels don't do this.

3. split/forked level paths

Less common than the previous two, but still done sometimes. Bonus points for when the split level paths address a common concept in different ways, thus allowing a way to add more content to the level without making it stray too long from the last restart point. However, with the introduction of multipoints, a better solution to this problem would be simply to have more checkpoints instead of splitting the level up.

4. Sonic-style level paths

The level is consistently facing one direction (for 2D sonic, this has always been to the right), but the level forks and merges paths many, many times. The paths are split into higher ones with typically more skill and precision required to stay on with a reward of taking less time to complete usually, while the lower ones are easier but don't have as many bonuses or they take a longer time to complete. Personally I haven't seen a level of this style in smbx yet, but it would most certainly be a change of pace from the average level.
(formerly Jayoshi, Luigi, Luigi.net)

User avatar
MarioboyFan602
Swooper
Swooper
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby MarioboyFan602 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:31 pm

I actually kinda like Non-Linear Levels, it gives alot of potential for room, and hidden secrets, but only if you get the formula right, if you dont get it right, you can end up with a bad level.
-----Current Projects-----
Spoiler: show
Image
I Try my Best and be as Nice as Possible to Anyone :D

User avatar
AndrewPixel
Bronze Yoshi Egg
Bronze Yoshi Egg
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:07 am
Flair: yeet
Contact:

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby AndrewPixel » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:14 pm

I see that a lot of levels that won a contest aren't so linear. Also i usually make linear levels with some little parts where you have to do something.
ImageImage

User avatar
Snessy the duck
Ludwig von Koopa
Ludwig von Koopa
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:04 am

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Snessy the duck » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:09 am

rockythechao wrote:I'd love to see more full-on metroidvanias or collectathon episodes. It seems like most attempts fall through due to requiring prolonged, involved design efforts and/or hitting the limits of the tech at the time/the devs' understanding of it, but I'd say the engine is more than capable of producing full nonlinear episodes in its current state. There just needs to be the right amount of dev power, design sense and programming knowhow behind such a project.
Well, we do have Mario Prime, which is pretty good imo, but that's pretty much it afaik.
Image

My Switch friend code: SW-5399-6466-3493

Image

User avatar
arcade999
Kamikaze Koopa
Kamikaze Koopa
Posts: 1344
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby arcade999 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:10 pm

GhostHawk wrote:
Sux wrote:Just a question...
I realized this when I came back to the forum
I know there's amazing linear levels and amazing non-linear levels, but I felt some dislike from the users against expansive levels.
Not complaining, only a doubt
Can you give any specific examples of people hating/disliking non-linear levels?
well, all around this comment section :|
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
check out my (shitpost) youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-fkps ... oRYc6XtNxQ
check out my discord server: https://discord.gg/nAjhRGb
check out my forum: http://arcade999forum.freeforums.net/
StickGuyGamez wrote:BRING ME BACK TO PENIS
Super Nick Bros X wrote:bruh
RTisBack wrote:Jesus christ isn't a lord/god you piece of human with no brain, and i mean that allah is the only one god.
Pop Yoshi Bros wrote:
arcade999 wrote:do using ms paint make me a bad human being?
No. It makes you a great veteran and someone who deserves respect...

unless you use Windows 7 paint
Noodle wrote:Danny is a crapposter. (I was in school when I typed this)
Snessy the duck wrote:
Electriking wrote:What the fuck is going on with this topic?
I have no idea. This guy honestly seems like a bot.

User avatar
TLtimelord
Red Yoshi Egg
Red Yoshi Egg
Posts: 2620
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:16 pm
Flair: Info under raps

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby TLtimelord » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:08 pm

arcade999 wrote:
GhostHawk wrote:
Sux wrote:Just a question...
I realized this when I came back to the forum
I know there's amazing linear levels and amazing non-linear levels, but I felt some dislike from the users against expansive levels.
Not complaining, only a doubt
Can you give any specific examples of people hating/disliking non-linear levels?
well, all around this comment section :|
I think you missed the point. We dislike how they are designed here. It may have been lost in translation but I don't think any of us hate non-linear levels in particular unless it's by personal preference.
The wall on which the prophets wrote
Is cracking at the seams
Upon the instruments of death
The sunlight brightly gleams
When every man is torn apart
With nightmares and with dreams
Will no one lay the laurel wreath
When silence drowns the screams

User avatar
Oshi
Kamikaze Koopa
Kamikaze Koopa
Posts: 1218
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:34 pm
Flair: This account is dying

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby Oshi » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:54 pm

I don't really like non-linearality, simply because making a open level takes skill. I prefer more straightforward level, akin to the classic Mario formula. Besides, non-linear levels usually include a ton of backtracking, which I don't prefer but don't really dislike either. So I guess the answer is simply not a lot of people can make good levels that have a ton of things to explore.
Don't expect me to post here often, if at all.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that this isn't supposed to happen.

TDK
Kamikaze Koopa
Kamikaze Koopa
Posts: 1384
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:26 pm

Re: Why non-linear levels are being hated at now?

Postby TDK » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:59 pm

I don't think all non-linear levels are bad. But some of them are just too long.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests