A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Hoeloe » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:34 am

WildWEEGEE wrote:I press print screen I have to paste it into a google drawing then crop it so it only shows the level.
Alt+PrintScreen captures the currently active window only. You're welcome.

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby arcade999 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:37 pm

Sorry, but the first 3 screenshots does actually contain clash.
1: everything is fine, except the background. As the assets used are smb3 styled (and the smw helicopter block does fit well), the backgound comes from nsmb and clearly doesn't fit: it's obviously 3D. It does remind me of greendan's episode, but in that case, it was intentionnal to mix both 2D and 3D

2: the only wrong thing is the super metroid ennemies, who doesn't matches with the rest. In fact, they don't even HAVE outlines or anything.

3: That one does contain a little bit of clash, but it's very trivial, so I won't comment on it.

I do agree, however, on the last one, which mixes styles pretty well.

For the ''it does clash'' section, I agree too. However, I feel like a fortress mixed with a grassland was actually intentionnal.
-People who scream "clash!" in the first 4 screenshots are nitpick kings and should be shown this topic to get learned
Oh, thanks you. Attacking people who disagree with your opinion.

Also ''nitpick kings''. That statement just sounds hypocrite to me. In fact, you, all honestly, really are pernickety about a lot of stuff. I was active on discord anough to see it. For example, when you get edgy on how to say a sentence or something.
-Clash needs to be determined on a case by case basis. If something doesn't stand out badly within the first second of blankly staring at a screenshot, it probably doesn't clash!!!!
Not sure if your'e playing a chatacter there or something, but you do look pretty edgy. Not trying to offend yoy but even, I'd say, butthurt.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby WildWEEGEE » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:51 pm

Hoeloe wrote:
WildWEEGEE wrote:I press print screen I have to paste it into a google drawing then crop it so it only shows the level.
Alt+PrintScreen captures the currently active window only. You're welcome.
Must of forgot that...
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Cedur » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:03 pm

arcade999 wrote:
The first four screenshots are supposed to show you that the concept of "clash" as perceived by many users is just plainly absurd. There's been many cases of users namedropping this silly world "clash" into a post, only communicating something like "bro you've mixed two styles it hurts my eyes 0/10", which in fact is nothing worth criticizing at all. They only do this because this is a "tradition" that probably originated prior to this forum (I'm curious to know where exactly it came from), and so they picked it up (I agree it's not necessarily a case of nitpicking though). And yes Enjl deliberately used some heated language to point out this fallacy, it doesn't mean to attack on a personal level and you shouldn't feel offended.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Electriking » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:17 pm

Cedur wrote:They only do this because this is a "tradition" that probably originated prior to this forum (I'm curious to know where exactly it came from), and so they picked it up (I agree it's not necessarily a case of nitpicking though)..
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby arcade999 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:42 pm

Cedur wrote:
arcade999 wrote:
The first four screenshots are supposed to show you that the concept of "clash" as perceived by many users is just plainly absurd. There's been many cases of users namedropping this silly world "clash" into a post, only communicating something like "bro you've mixed two styles it hurts my eyes 0/10", which in fact is nothing worth criticizing at all.
ah ah, I agree. commenting shit to comment shit that doesn't improve anything is just utterly stupid. I've seen that sooooo much time.
Cedur wrote:And yes Enjl deliberately used some heated language to point out this fallacy, it doesn't mean to attack on a personal level and you shouldn't feel offended.
yes, but the thing is; some users DID say it clashes, including me in the snow screenshot in it acutal thread, which technically targets me a ''nitpick king'', aswell as people who looks at the screenshots and are like ''hmmmm, I see clash''. I know I should not feel targeted or offended plus I'm not sur if it was intended, but it still technically means that.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Cedur » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:11 pm

Electriking wrote:
Ah, interesting. Guess I wish that never happened.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby HenryRichard » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:52 pm

I have to disagree with the fourth screenshot not clashing - the way those trees are different colors is pretty annoying to me.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Thehelmetguy1 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:39 pm

arcade999 wrote:
Arcade, I don't intend to offend you or anyone with this, but sometimes I feel that you get offended a bit too easily. Enjl's wording definetly could have been better, but you shouldn't take it to the personal side.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby PixelPest » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:21 pm

arcade999 wrote:
There's also a difference between all graphics having the exact same style and the graphics being sufficiently fitting

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby arcade999 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:18 pm

PixelPest wrote:
arcade999 wrote:
There's also a difference between all graphics having the exact same style and the graphics being sufficiently fitting
ikr; that's what I meant, altough I know I could've explain it better
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arcade999 wrote:do using ms paint make me a bad human being?
No. It makes you a great veteran and someone who deserves respect...

unless you use Windows 7 paint
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Electriking wrote:What the fuck is going on with this topic?
I have no idea. This guy honestly seems like a bot.

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:56 pm

Seeing that this is supposed to be a new "guide" to clash, I feel like a few things should also be mentioned:

- Clash has both objective and subjective parts to it. There are lots of points you can make with color theory, lighting, and other aesthetic components, but at the end of the day some people will notice certain things more easily than others. You can't make everyone agree on what stands out when they notice different things first.
- Clash is not a black or white state. Some graphical elements may work well with others, some may work moderately well but might not be the best option for what you're going for, and some elements may not work out at all.

Recognizing these two things should help make it more clear that it's not just about determining what is clash and what isn't, but what stands out (to you) and what may stand out (to someone else).
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Uzendayo » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:55 am

You said that two different art styles will inevitably clash, as shown with the urchins, but then post a screenshot of SMW blocks with SMB3 bgos and with a SMB2 background, effectively perpetrating clash in the exact same fashion? Wew lad. TIL that it’s not clash if enjl says it’s not.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:06 pm

Uzendayo wrote:You said that two different art styles will inevitably clash
I said quite the opposite.
It's important to keep in mind that these screenshots are examples highlighting different aspects that are commonly misinterpreted. The thread is made to unhinge the idea of "every SMW graphic will look like garbage next to any SMB3 graphic", perpetuated by stuff like that one clash file in the graphics pack.
The important takeaway are the keynotes at the bottom, especially: "Clash needs to be determined on a case by case basis." and "Clash means "this graphic doesn't fit its environment"".
The reason why the urchins are in the bottom camp but the vast vanilla style mix is in the top camp is because the urchin's level of detail is far from the level of detail in its surroundings and an odd shading style not present in the rest of the level, while the vanilla style mix mixes its elements pretty evenly, giving every style enough representation to blend into the style the level is going for.

Of course, like Zha Hong Lang said, everyone will be slightly more or less sensitive to certain aspects like the colouring in the vanilla mix screenshot, but it's also important to remember that it's an artistic scale and, if something isn't grating to look at, it's probably not as big of a deal as people make it out to be who immediately go to point it out.

Like I said, my goal wasn't to present the absolute worst examples of clash, but rather give examples that would fall on different ends of the spectrum in order to topple the poorly researched assumption people often have so that people can make more informed statements about a level's style in the future.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Sancles-Chan » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:29 pm

Enjl, I mean no disrespect, I recommend trying to make your guide topics sound less "Be-all and End-all" of a certain field you're exploring.

The way the topic is presented sounds like you're talking down to everyone and I'm sure nobody appreciates being told "This IS clash and this ISN'T clash" as much as it bothers you that people consider style-mixing clash. What prompted me to make this post is the fact that your examples have something I and many people would considering "clash".
I'm not going to debate whether this is clash or not for one simple reason: Clash is a term which should be abolished and should be replaced with "This looks ugly".
Clash as a term limits newcomers and is generally not useful for anything, it can't be a concrete thing because some people will completely disagree on what is and isn't clash.

So can we all collectively just stop using the term please?
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Cedur » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:45 pm

Sancles-Chan wrote:So can we all collectively just stop using the term please?
absolutely seconding this (in fact, if there's indeed something misfitting, it can always be described like that without the word)
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby TLtimelord » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 pm

Electriking wrote:
Cedur wrote:They only do this because this is a "tradition" that probably originated prior to this forum (I'm curious to know where exactly it came from), and so they picked it up (I agree it's not necessarily a case of nitpicking though)..
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Joey was the one that made that silly little guide that's in Red Yoshi's GFX pack. I'd blame Joey moreso for paving the attitude towards clash by setting up those faulty guidelines.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:58 pm

Enjl wrote:The important takeaway are the keynotes at the bottom, especially: "Clash needs to be determined on a case by case basis." and "Clash means "this graphic doesn't fit its environment"".
I feel like it might have been better if you had given these points greater focus in your first post, since as it stands your topic has a much more visible message of trying to one-up other people you disagree with (which, as you can tell, ultimately distracts people from what you're trying to say). Other than that, I don't have any important problems with what you say about clash. It was the reason I felt the need to add on my own post, however.
Cedur wrote:
Sancles-Chan wrote:So can we all collectively just stop using the term [clash] please?
absolutely seconding this (in fact, if there's indeed something misfitting, it can always be described like that without the word)
As great of a solution as this sounds, we've tried it in the past and it doesn't work. The forums (before this one) have even gone as far as censoring the word outright, and obviously it's still persisted. You can't fix the problem by evading it, only by correcting it over and over again until enough people understand the true definition of the word and the misuse wears away.
TLtimelord wrote:Joey was the one that made that silly little guide that's in Red Yoshi's GFX pack. I'd blame Joey moreso for paving the attitude towards clash by setting up those faulty guidelines.
This is true, but you have to realize at the same time that lots and lots of people were and still are throwing it around without meaning anyway. His guide probably propelled it some more, but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it really made a difference.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Teemster2 » Tue May 01, 2018 1:26 am

Why not make everything the same colors for the core basic tiles that come with the game? That would solve some of the problems. Anyways I say do what your imagination comes up with and just have fun but that's just what I do. Not saying it's the best way to go but no stress or worries and all fun leads to no burn out and keeps the game going.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Westretroman » Tue May 01, 2018 2:01 am

Teemster2 wrote:Why not make everything the same colors for the core basic tiles that come with the game? That would solve some of the problems. Anyways I say do what your imagination comes up with and just have fun but that's just what I do. Not saying it's the best way to go but no stress or worries and all fun leads to no burn out and keeps the game going.
The problem with that though, is that people are going to get annoyed if the core basic tiles' colors were changed to something different than in 1.3 and then they'll start complaining to fix it. Also custom graphics exist for also that reason.


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