The Big Talk

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Kley
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The Big Talk

Postby Kley » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:25 pm

This is mostly a copy/paste from my announcement on discord. I probably won't reply much to this announcement due to how busy I am, but everyone is free to discuss their thoughts here too.

Edit: This topic is also a direct response to this: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=23674

Hello everyone. I've made this announcement strictly tor discuss what happened Thursday in regards to the idea that the admins thought about moving everything to Reddit, and the community basically going absolutely mad about the idea. This might be a little lengthy and all over the place, so bear with me. I hope you'll take the time to read this.

Firstly, I want to thank all of you guys so much for keeping this community alive and well (for the most part). There have been several rocky instances that have taken place since I've become a mod, an admin, and then webmaster. This recent disaster might be one for the books. I know I'm not perfect, and I'm not looking for you guys to feel sorry for me, but I truly do want to apologize because I know I've never been the one to speak up most of the time whenever anything was going down. I know I have directly or indirectly caused resentment due to my inactivity as the website leader. That's my fault, and no one else's. When Joey had announced to the staff team that he basically needed to give up the forum, I jumped on the idea. He had way too much going on in his life, and it was only a matter of time before he had to say goodbye. Boy, I had no idea what I was actually in for.

Being webmaster isn't hard, but it isn't easy either. For the most part, my duty is to make sure the website stays up by paying for it, making backups, fixing internal issues, etc. I think you get the idea. What I'm getting at is that since I take care of all the boring stuff that no one else really wants to do, my biggest responsibility is to make sure I have a strong staff team that can be a good face for the community. I really don't want to get into this part too much, but I think you all know where I'm coming from when I say that there have been some really concerning things in regards to the staff. This is where I feel like I've let everyone down the most. You know, it can pretty tough finding people who are active, willing, and fit enough to represent the community as a whole. The staff team works very hard to try to satisfy the majority, and to make sure this place is warm and welcoming to old and new members.

You may have noticed that over time, the admins have slowly been less and less active and engaging with the community. This might sound crazy to some of you guys, but we all have a lot of things going on in our personal lives. It was becoming harder and harder to keep up with our administrative duties as times went on. Eventually, some even lost the will to do anything entirely. It happens. No one stays mod/admin forever. People grow up or move on to other things. Life happens, and you need to get your priorities straight. This is something I've been personally battling for the past several months. So many new, scary, and amazing opportunities have come into my life, and SMBX was slowly starting to fall by the wayside. This was starting to take a huge toll on my conscience because I am supposed to be leading a community, but I just didn't have a drive to do anything anymore. I felt stuck.

This was when an idea that Aristo had thrown at me months ago had surfaced in my head again. What if we simply archived the forums, and shift everything over to an SMBX subreddit? The idea sounded great to me... on paper. The community would basically run itself! We could make flairs for different topics, people could upvote/downvote, and the minimalist nature of reddit would make moderation so much easier! The more I thought about it, the more I was pretty cool with the idea, given that my drive to continue on with this community had plummeted. How could this possibly go wrong? Boy lemme tell you how.

The most foolish mistake I made was that this idea was discussed amongst the admins, and only the admins. There was absolutely no transparency in this what-so-ever, not even with the mods. We didn't even think twice to ask the mods how they felt about something like this. We didn't even want to consider the ideas of asking the community how they felt about it. It was what we were going to do, and that was it. In my eyes, and the other admins' eyes, we figured "Who even cares. the community would probably like the idea, and there's only 50 sum active users anyways. What could possibly go wrong?" What we had initially thought was a great idea, ended up being the worst idea ever and I've realized that, whether the other former admins agree with me on that or not. I was looking for a quick and easy way to just set myself free from a problem that I had been running away from. That was so stupid of me, and probably the absolute worst thing a leader can do.

When the idea was impulsively presented, it was the storm of the century. There were heated arguments, strong provocations, and disheartened reactions on discord and the global announcement. The community's reaction truly spoke volumes to me. I had thought that no one truly cared about this community, and I was completely wrong. The announcement actually proved otherwise!

What I want to happily announce is that We're not moving to reddit, end of story. What I also want to say, is that there are going to be some changes around here within the staff team, along with how it operates. People are going to be shifted around, people are being hired, and some people have been let go. It sucks to have to let some people go, but it is what it is. I don't know if you'll be happy to hear me say this, but I've decided to keep my role as webmaster, and just that. I don't have too much of a desire to much administrating, nor do I have the time. I will however happily continue to keep the website up and running so long as the community remains active, and I can get a good working staff team to help me keep it going. Voice your opinions here! Know that I care about each and every one of you!

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby PopYoshi » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:44 pm

I'll repeat it again, even if the community someday moves to reddit I won't have any problem, people must understand that things have to change someday (kinda ironic I'm saying this since I'm one of the most impatient and I don't like things to change)

I don't have a problem with any of this, the admins must do what they have to do to keep the community even if it means leaving that position

I'm not as active as I used to be but I'm happy I'm part of the SMBX community

Kley, I respect you even more than I did with Valtteri and Joey
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Knux » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:47 pm

I will say that the staff have dealt with the backlash very well, in past instances some members have just rage-quit and brushed SMBX off out of their lives completely. I believe that we have the 'perfect balance' because the staff running this place haven't been heavily influenced by the poor decisions that nobody learned from.
People are going to be shifted around, people are being hired, and some people are being let go. It sucks to have to let some people go, but it is what it is.
I think what differeates us from other online communities is that, again, the primary interest is based on the Super Mario Bros. franchise. We've had staff members as young as 12 running as moderators before. Staff should, in my opinion, be for members in their 20s and onwards. 13-19 year olds aren't mature enough for this role, bar some exceptions. With college, future work and natural life-style changes, relying on younger staff members isn't a good idea anyway because most of the time they'll have to move on. Look at Valtteri for example, he went to the Navy. He's hardly here now, despite being an influential and well-respected member.

I still believe that there are more problems with the SMBX staff team that are seperate from age-groups though. This may be a discussion best suited between the current staff and I in private, although the public definitely should be allowed to put in their ideas and experiences too.

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Taycamgame » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:00 pm

I was about to post on the discord channel but it got removed right before i could post
Few questions:
1. How many people actually applied for the mod applications? And are they still being sorted out?
2. Are there still going to be only 1 or 2 new mods or are more going to be added now after what had happened on Thursday?
3. We know that the Reddit move was a bad idea. But is anything else being discussed that may help the community out in this area?
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Reiuji Utsuho » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:02 pm

I know that running a forum isn't easy. Back then I always thought it wasn't a super daunting task, but I can appreciate that running a large community isn't easy at all (especially on the back-end) so I personally appreciate all of the time and money you put into keeping these forums up and I appreciate all of the other staff (current and former) who try to keep things nice and orderly around here.

I also appreciate how this situation's been handled too.

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby AeroMatter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:05 pm

Taycamgame wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:00 pm
I was about to post on the discord channel but it got removed right before i could post
Few questions:
1. How many people actually applied for the mod applications? And are they still being sorted out?
2. Are there still going to be only 1 or 2 new mods or are more going to be added now after what had happened on Thursday?
3. We know that the Reddit move was a bad idea. But is anything else being discussed that may help the community out in this area?
1. About 11 people applied. Staff are trying to figure out who to pick still amidst the Thursday thing.
2. Yes, only one or two mods will be promoted.
3. Staff will be making changes to increase communication and avoid further events like this.
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Eri7 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:07 pm

Kley, you are forgiven! Everyone makes mistakes, that's part of our human nature, we just have to learn from them and make sure we don't commit the same mistakes again!
It's time for the new generation of smbx users to take place of running the community, as you have seen, there are a lot of flaws by letting veterans do so much work considering how busy they are with their lives as well.
There are a lot of people who will happily take their place and make sure they are as good as the old staff, you just don't know it yet as you haven't interacted much with the community!
Do you seriously believe that out of over 2000 users, nobody is capable of doing the staff's job? No! As i said, its time to start giving a chance to other people and let the community grow, this is how we are going to continue, by allowing the next generation to take a part of running the community.
This community is very important for me and i want to see only the best for it and i hope everyone tries to put effort into making this a reality.
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Kley » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:07 pm

Taycamgame wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:00 pm
I was about to post on the discord channel but it got removed right before i could post
Few questions:
1. How many people actually applied for the mod applications? And are they still being sorted out?
2. Are there still going to be only 1 or 2 new mods or are more going to be added now after what had happened on Thursday?
3. We know that the Reddit move was a bad idea. But is anything else being discussed that may help the community out in this area?
1. Several people applies. They're still being sorted out. This whole thing may cause a slight delay.
2. Probably still only 1-2.
3. Nothing worth mentioning other than the staff team working amongst themselves to make inter-staff communication a non-existent issue. A good staff team with great communication will result in a happier community.

Edit: damnit mona beat me to it.

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Inspirited » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:38 pm

I'm personally a very in-active person. I love SMBX though and am glad this community is alive.

Can I just say thank you to Kley? Don't worry about those "mistakes" you did, it's all good now. At least staff isn't actually just pushing for whatever they want without the communities approval. You're a really nice person really, handling the website and paying to keep it up.

I wish you guys good luck to get/be good staff. I hope the forum will head in a good direction.
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Sancles-Chan » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:39 pm

I'm gonna ask the important question.

Kley are you gonna draw the all the new staff.
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Kley » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:50 pm

Sancles-Chan wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:39 pm
I'm gonna ask the important question.

Kley are you gonna draw the all the new staff.
OH SNAP. Yeah that may happen in the future.

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby DabLord420 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:19 pm

imagine thinking you could replace an entire forum with a... subreddit.

that's a big yikes and an even bigger OOF tbqh fam.

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby TheLordKhon » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:21 pm

Knux wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:47 pm
13-19 year olds aren't mature enough for this role
i'm sure a 9 year old would think twice before erasing an entire forum

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Nien » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:43 pm

I woke up on this glorious saturday, I was just layin' in my comfy bed while browsing some stuff, and felt like sleeping for a little bit longer. However, when I learned of the existence of this thread, the statements within it boosted my braincells and gave me the strength to get up. I just had to respond to them.
Knux wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:47 pm
Staff should, in my opinion, be for members in their 20s and onwards. 13-19 year olds aren't mature enough for this role, bar some exceptions.
Everyone's got specific qualifications going for them, age has never been a good indicator of maturity. The only difference that separates an immature underage user and an adult one most of the time is that the former is a child and the other one's a manchild. The other issue with establishing an age limit is that you've only got a few years before the moderator you just hired moves on to do more important things.

It's not difficult to analyse a person's qualifications before hiring them, there's literally no good reason to establish an age limit on moderation.

Knux wrote:I still believe that there are more problems with the SMBX staff team that are seperate from age-groups though. This may be a discussion best suited between the current staff and I in private, although the public definitely should be allowed to put in their ideas and experiences too.
As I've said, age groups are not a problem, it almost feels like you're baiting people by constantly pointing at them. Second, discussing issues in private is the exact thing that seems to have commenced this trainwreck. Questionable choices towards transparency and user input have always been the biggest factors that have plagued the SMBX community for years, and from what I'm reading right now, there's barely been any improvement in that department.

But anyway, let's shift to the main post.
Kley wrote:I had thought that no one truly cared about this community, and I was completely wrong. The announcement actually proved otherwise!
Kley, I gotta congratulate you. Throughout the SMBX's extremely noticeable incidents that even the most inactive users know about where the staff has taken decisions that have completely disregarded all kinds of user input (such as the smbx forum merges), you were the first one to have the common courtesy to say "oh wow, maybe our users DO care about the forum!". Absolutely magnificent work my guy.
Kley wrote:Voice your opinions here! Know that I care about each and every one of you!
See, this is a very kindhearted statement. Unfortunately, some of your statements make it feel weak. Here's a couple of them reinforce that feeling:
Kley wrote: In my eyes, and the other admins' eyes, we figured "Who even cares. the community would probably like the idea, and there's only 50 sum active users anyways. What could possibly go wrong?
Numbers do not define the devotion of a community, even if only a small amount of members are left, they're still the ones who define the forum through their contributions and efforts, yet you almost used a random statistic as an argument to make a major decision.
I don't know if you'll be happy to hear me say this, but I've decided to keep my role as webmaster, and just that. I don't have too much of a desire to administrate, nor do I have the time.
You also said this right before your last statement. You've basically disregarded all of your responsabilities that involve the users, and while it's perfectly fine for you to do that (you're a proudly free individual, after all), any input anyone can give you is practically useless at this point. There ain't really much for you to "care about" anymore.

----------

I've been quite inactive in this place for a while, but I joined this community about 7 years ago, and it's honestly quite disheartening to see that this kind of stuff is STILL happening. Half of the staff members are veterans, it should've been incredibly easy to avoid such an obvious mistake, since it's been done multiple times in the past. But you didn't, and from what I'm noticing, this whole thing has put the SMBX on its last supply of life support. It's only a matter of time before it gets unplugged, and I doubt that the normal userbase will be responsible. Especially considering since most of your competent staff members have vanished.


PS: There's no valid reason to not bring back the rep system, one of the bigger arguments against it was that it encouraged "popularity contests", but since you almost switched to a platform that establishes a post hierarchy solely based on upvotes, I don't think you can use that argument anymore.

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Cedur » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:53 pm

Mona wrote:Yes, only one or two mods will be promoted.
Kley wrote:Probably still only 1-2.

Was this part planned already with Aristo's and PixelPests' leaving in mind? It may eventually not be enough for exactly the reasons stated in the OP itself (and in addition, the bottom part of Nien's post). If you want a strong staff, then make everyone staff who you can feel sure they deserve it, and who you can feel sure they're fully committed enough to likely not leave just half a year after.
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Eri7 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:56 pm

Cedur wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:53 pm
Mona wrote:Yes, only one or two mods will be promoted.
Kley wrote:Probably still only 1-2.

Was this part planned already with Aristo's and PixelPests' leaving in mind? It may eventually not be enough for exactly the reasons stated in the OP itself (and in addition, the bottom part of Nien's post). If you want a strong staff, then make everyone staff who you can feel sure they deserve it, and who you can feel sure they're fully committed enough to likely not leave just half a year after.
I agree with this statement, 1-2 people won't make that much of a difference, you need more people to help out in order to make a major difference in the community.
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby AeroMatter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:11 pm

At the time it was just brought up to have 1-2 new people bring more to contribute. There will still be only 1-2 people because there isn't really a huge need for more mods, just some more to help keep things in order. An announcement will be made sooner or later regarding staff changes.
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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Kley » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:12 pm

Nien wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:43 pm
I don't know if you'll be happy to hear me say this, but I've decided to keep my role as webmaster, and just that. I don't have too much of a desire to administrate, nor do I have the time.
You also said this right before your last statement. You've basically disregarded all of your responsabilities that involve the users, and while it's perfectly fine for you to do that (you're a proudly free individual, after all), any input anyone can give you is practically useless at this point. There ain't really much for you to "care about" anymore.
Nah. Any input isn't useless because I'll still have a limited presence and will listen to what anyone says. That doesn't mean I'm going to do every little thing someone wants me to do. I'm mostly sitting back and taking care of the back end maintenance. responsibilities involving the users are what I have my team for. My basic role here is to make sure the website is at the very least functional, backed up, paid for, and overseeing my administrators when there's problems. Same goes for me overseeing moderators, but the admins can mostly handle that themselves. I'm confident in that. I'm not trying to negate any responsibilities I may have, but they have shifted a bit. I was just letting people know my presence is going to be more limited now that I've come clean about how I feel and my shift in placement. It's better to think of me more as a webmaster that watches over everyone and fixes site issues, rather than being the ringleader of this circus ;)

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby candle » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:10 pm

Thank you for your honesty :-) I think that greatly contributed to settling things. I can imagine that administrative work takes quite some time, while interests may shift and real live keeps interfering - that's the reason why I'm online here only once or twice a week, but then regularly.

Me, I very much like this forum, even better than Discord. The very looks make me feel more comfortable, and I feel like I can take my time when reading and writing something here. If it takes a little longer to get a response, that's fine with me. Only when working on an actual project, where there is a lot of communication going on, I might prefer Discord over the forum.

About the status of the community, personally I think there is enough activity going on to keep SMBX going. I would like to encourage the community to spread the word by making Letsplays on Youtube or simply inviting their friends for a game of SMBX.

Looking forward to another great year with you guys! :-) (Okay, this year is already four months old, but...)

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Re: The Big Talk

Postby Vinyl Scratch » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:29 pm

You guys need to hand over forum power to someone else if this keeps up. People having busy or fucked up lives is no excuse. You either fire them at that point or find someone else to cover for them when they're not available. I've been in multiple communities in my life and even had power in a few of them. I can almost guarantee you that my life has been absolutely fucked up in more ways than one that covers extensive and sensitive topics I can't even mention without going completely off-topic, but that never stopped me from doing my janny job for free inside the various communities. Like Nien said, the fact that the community hasn't solved these issues despite SMBX being around, if not for over a decade old at this point is incredibly depressing and says a lot about our community. Hell, the fact you even admitted that you felt like the community doesn't care just says you have no idea how the community is, considering you literally have numbers at the front page of the website that tells you how many unique IPs have come to this place.
This is just embarrassing at this point. Listen to your users. Accept all forms of criticism, whether constructive or not. People don't just say random shit unless they're literally psychopathic. They have to have thought of a reason to say it regardless. Be transparent. With everything. No matter if it's an uncomfortable topic or not. The only reason why you should hide things is if they're special surprise events dedicated to bring the community together.
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