Should clips be removed from SMBX?

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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby 55jedat555 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:44 pm

Natsu wrote: @55jedat555: So essentialy the majority of the userbase should accomodate to the minority. That's what your entire post boils down to. And since you asked a question, Yes, yes it's worth the effort to remove clips, fixing bugs should always be a priority when it comes to the development of any kind of software.
Let me rephrase that for you: the majority should be encouraged to learn more about the engine they're using, if that involves clips or not. Even if clips get removed, other (perhaps more obscure) advanced tech such as item abuse, shell jumps, bomb jumps, etc. still remains part of the game, and assuring that levels aren't breakable using those tricks is far more difficult than preventing potential clips, even the statue clip that can be used to bypass virtually any wall. I think that when people see their levels being broken they should take that as a lesson for the future instead of just complaining how the game is broken and jank (although I won't deny that, it's redigit we're dealing with anyway). Furthermore, zips don't cause game crashes (at least none that were discovered so far), meaning that they can't just be blatantly compared to other 1.3 shenanigans such as the mushroom+lava crash or venus plant error.
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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Natsu » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:06 pm

See, that's where you're wrong. One thing is to use tricks to sequence break, another is to abuse an early-game bug that was never meant to be a thing. This may not crash the game but that doesn't mean the bug has a vip pass and can stay.

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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Animebryan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:25 pm

Natsu wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:01 pm
@55jedat555: So essentially the majority of the userbase should accommodate to the minority. That's what your entire post boils down to. And since you asked a question, Yes, yes it's worth the effort to remove clips, fixing bugs should always be a priority when it comes to the development of any kind of software.
I'll repeat this again. Some forms of clipping (crouch zip) may not be a bug or a glitch at all. It existed since the first Mario game, and could be exploited to gain an advantage & reach areas normally not accessible. The really glitchy ones that can cause an unfair death or soft-lock should be fixed for sure, but ones like the crouch zip which has been used as a 'secret' method for hiding things or bypassing certain obstacles should continue to exist so that they be used by players & level designers alike.
Due to the 'hostility' between me & some of the staff on here, I'm going to start blocking users who post on my topics without posting an actual solution & are just retaliating/reacting to my posts. I'll try to be nicer with my posts but situations like this & the constant problems with SMBX2 & PGE is making that harder & harder to be nice about all this. :(

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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Natsu » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:35 pm

Animebryan wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:25 pm
Natsu wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:01 pm
@55jedat555: So essentially the majority of the userbase should accommodate to the minority. That's what your entire post boils down to. And since you asked a question, Yes, yes it's worth the effort to remove clips, fixing bugs should always be a priority when it comes to the development of any kind of software.
I'll repeat this again. Some forms of clipping (crouch zip) may not be a bug or a glitch at all. It existed since the first Mario game, and could be exploited to gain an advantage & reach areas normally not accessible. The really glitchy ones that can cause an unfair death or soft-lock should be fixed for sure, but ones like the crouch zip which has been used as a 'secret' method for hiding things or bypassing certain obstacles should continue to exist so that they be used by players & level designers alike.
May, as in may also not be. And even if it were, the fact it's a glitch doesn't change.
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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby HenryRichard » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:24 pm

I'm 99% sure the crouch zip is an intentional feature (a glitch by definition is unintentional) that I believe shouldn't be removed due to it breaking various secrets and being really easy to design around. I think it would be pretty easy to write some lua to force players to keep crouching in 1-block gaps though; if someone did that it could be released as a separate library that could easily be added to a level or episode with basically no coding knowledge.

Other clips are really annoying though, especially the zipping on platforms, which could be hard to remove without breaking crouch clipping... if that's the case I'd be OK with crouch clipping going away as a necessary sacrifice.
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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Eclipsed » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:43 pm

HenryRichard wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:24 pm
I'm 99% sure the crouch zip is an intentional feature (a glitch by definition is unintentional) that I believe shouldn't be removed due to it breaking various secrets and being really easy to design around.
If I remember correctly, from the older days in smbx, a good chunk of the player base was saying that the crouch zip was intentional by Redigit and was made as the engine's ejection system.
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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Hoeloe » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:30 am

Feel like I should clarify some stuff here:

1) If clips were to be removed, this would absolutely be done in a way that will not break older levels, even those relying on clips. Either an option would be given in the editor, or simply newer files would disable clips. "It would break levels" is not a concern.
2) To a point, Eclipsed is right in that zipping is part of the engine's ejection system (that is, the system the game has for dealing with invalid player positions), but it's more an unintended side effect of that system than an actual feature. Ejection systems are necessary, though, and what "removing clips" would entail is creating a new, more robust ejection system more similar to the one used in Mario Maker.

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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Cedur » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:43 am

I'd like to reaffirm that clipping saved my day more often than ruining it (I most notoriously remember the World 10 secret exit in Airship Attack which was excessively hard without clipping).

also congratz Natsu
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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Eclipsed » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:58 am

Cedur wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:43 am
I'd like to reaffirm that clipping saved my day more often than ruining it (I most notoriously remember the World 10 secret exit in Airship Attack which was excessively hard without clipping).

also congratz Natsu
Was that the boss rush at the end?
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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Cedur » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:16 am

Eclipsed wrote:Was that the boss rush at the end?

no, that underground billy gun level where you have to beware of poison mushrooms

thanks to clipping I could just use a leaf instead of carrying the billy gun and triggering all ?-blocks with poison mushrooms
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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Sednaiur » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:34 am

In my opinion, the crouch clip and move clip (platform clip) would be better off removed. Here are the reasons why I think that:

Crouch Clip; Triggering it is very easy and simple and the way Redigit made it behave is just not the correct way. In the original games, the crouch clip was made so that the player would always clip to the right while not being able to control it good, probably because progression in levels were made by moving from left to right. It was there to prevent a softlock, in most cases. In SMBX, however, the player can control the direction of the clipping simply by facing the other direction and I never understood why that was the intention. And having the crouch clip occuring is not just because of people not knowing about it. It can be forced to occur pretty easy even in levels with design taking the clip into account. When there is a wall of breakable bricks, they can be broken in a way to allow the clip. Or bring a Mushroom Block and use that one. Or the SMB3 Kick Blocks. Go and watch some videos by Mechdragon, Wraith Admaknight, Prox or Bosseditor to see how to break even solid design with easy tricks. If anything, I would make it so that any playable cannot stand up if the result would be a clip. Jumping while crouching would be the only means to cross small gaps.

Platform Clip; That one happened to me several times on accident and either skipped part of a level, gave me access to areas not intended to, or just killing me in a silly way. Having this clip not happen at all would be very nice. To me this is not just a clip but a real glitch that was never intended, as there should be nothing like this happening in a platformer. It makes the game in question less stable and reliable.

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Re: Should clips be removed from SMBX?

Postby Eclipsed » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:31 pm

Posting this as a heads up:
If you want clips to be removed from your episode/level including intentional ones, using a later version where clips are removed will not suffice.
The reason for this is that if you’re getting really specific, most speedruns use any version they want to play a level or game. For example, Mario Odyssey played on 1.0 because each patch removed clips that made the route slower. The same will happen for anything.

If you want to 100% remove the possibility of clips, the requirement is on the version where clips are removed or default disabled, the author needs to make sure that it’s only playable in that version or beyond through using an npc or a couple lines of lua code
Check Out SMBX Servers List - It Hosts Every SMBX Server

Check out my channel for SMBX content and custom levels

My Best Speedruns:
[WR] Invasion 2 Any% All Characters in 28:28:602
Spoiler: show

[WR] The Princess Cliche in 7:16:263
Spoiler: show
[WR]Another Princess Cliche in 23:44:217
Spoiler: show
[WR] The Great Empire in 15:36:686
Spoiler: show
[WR]Super Mario Land Returns in 7:18:141
Spoiler: show
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