SMBX2 (2.0 Beta 3)

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Zenithbreak » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:31 am

Lila M-3210 wrote:This is odd. That is exactly how I figured to do this in 1.3 but the option menu does not show up in SMBX2. There IS an SMBX Program in the same folder as SMBX2. Maybe I should use that to use the controller.
You have to quit out of an episode to get to the main menu.
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Hoeloe » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:13 am

Spinda wrote:
SnifitGuy wrote:
Enjl wrote:
yeah just ignore the discodehaus aka the place everyone is led to when they need help
Also the reason why people ask you to learn basic Lua first is because, like anything, you need an understanding of the basics to be able to deal with the more complex stuff. People are asking you to use the wealth of online resources to learn about Lua's structure and syntax (and are usually willing to help you do that if you ask) before you dive into complex SMBX programming. There is a reason we ask you to do this: it is substantially faster and more rewarding than just handing you the code. You can learn Lua in a week if you make the effort to do so, even if you've never programmed before.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Enjl » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:45 am

SnifitGuy wrote:This is one reason why the community as a whole is not fully fluent in LunaLua; you need prior knowledge of Lua coding (according to you) in order to make these spectacular things, and the learning of such code is considerably difficult, as is any other form of code. However, I will also say that this whole Lua thing is very much a clique. There seems to be those who are fluent and knowledgeable yet do not provide examples of their work apart from certain features grouped into a specific file or something from which it is difficult to extract code. I don't see why you are so pissed at him, Enjil; there are absolutely no good tutorials nor tutors regarding LunaLua, with people being forced through trial and error to see what the hell each function does in SMBX because Lua was not designed to work with SMBX. It's not fair to those like myself who truly want to learn LunaLua but are turned off by the fact that there are no decent examples of complex systems and the fact that it seems that the true potential of LunaLua is kept among some dark cult of mysterious entities. I'm not accusing anyone of withholding information for malicious or selfish reasons, but I am saying that conversations generally go like this:
(LunaLua) Noob: Hey, how do you do x function?
(LunaLua) Pro: Hey, you just gotta do <insert Lua jargon here>.
Noob: cool. Could I do something like <insert Lua command here>?
Pro: No, it's not built into LunaLua.
Noob: Ok, how would I add it to LunaLua.
Pro: Learn Lua why don't you.
Spoiler: show
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1) Hoeloe's post.
2) I am working on reviving the old tutorial series. It's not at a sharable state yet because I'm currently dying from real-life stress but that's beside the point. Tutorial series is coming and it will cover Lua basics before going into SMBX specifics.
3) I've had countless exchanges with him in the past which have set the tone for this exchange. I am frequently helping out many people with their lunalua problems, not just on codehaus, but this is a kind of scenario where I know I would be frustrated just a few minutes after explaining what a boolean is.
4) Many of the "dark mysterious systems" come down to arithmetic and usage of Lua's basic capabilities in clever ways. The SMBX-specific functions are a conveniency that builds on top of that and is much easier to understand once you got a hang of coding as a whole. One of my friends which I'm trying to help out is missing these basics but knows some of the extended stuff that's possible, and it helps him exactly 0, as he is incapable of getting code running on his own.
5) Much like everything else in life, programming comes down to a matter of interest and good googling. I am self-taught in lua without much prior knowledge in programming, and much like everything else you have a higher chance at succeeding if you can get yourself interested in the topic. The reason why the community isn't fluid in it is because many people don't care enough to research or actively learn the language, which isn't a bad thing because ultimately everything comes down to interests.
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby timocomsmbx2345 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:53 am

Enjl wrote:
Koopa10 wrote:there are trailer things that do not appear in the editor do you have to change graphics? And there are also missing characters
The trailer showcases some things made with the 2.0 engine in addition to its features.
timocomsmbx2345 wrote:
Koopa10 wrote:there are trailer things that do not appear in the editor do you have to change graphics? And there are also missing characters
The Trailer had "Orekel" in it, but it took 3 months of lunalua & Enjl someone wont tell me how make something like that.
I'm not telling you how to do it because you're horrible at lua and I don't want to spend 5 months tutoring you about very specific things when you can learn all these things on your own time. Orakel, who took 3 WEEKS, mind you, uses a lot of different things lua is capable of. Talk to me about it again once you have a basic understanding of functions, tables, coroutines, vectors, verteces, mathematics and english (and by an extent: textblox, eventu, colliders APIs) and then I can explain to you how he works without spending an eternity on every miniscule detail.
Here's a place where you can start: https://www.lua.org/pil/1.html


EDIT:
WE HAVE A BLOG NOW WHERE WE SOMETIMES POST THINGS
so if you want more of that sweet development information head over there and give our posts a read. We'll probably announce each new post here too but keep an eye on it just to be safe :p
i understand. . . . . . . . . . I just didin't want my boss rush to have cloned of bosses like the first boss rush made in SMBX made.
SMBX 2.0 β4 is here!!! How about 2.0 β5?
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Meepyglobix wrote:DON'T SAY "38A??". OR I'll SHOOT YOU.
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Enjl » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:49 am

Image
Friendly reminder that this block exists in beta 3 and is super awesome!
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Lila M-3210 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:02 am

There seems to be no button for configuring controls on the Launcher Screen. The Launcher Screen lets you choose an episode from there. Am I incorrectly looking at it?

EDIT: I see what you meant. It did not occur to me that Pause would be the ESC Key. This worked. Thank you for the help.
Last edited by Lila M-3210 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Enjl » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:09 am

Lila M-3210 wrote:There seems to be no button for configuring controls on the Launcher Screen. The Launcher Screen lets you choose an episode from there. Am I incorrectly looking at it?
Zenithbreak wrote:
Lila M-3210 wrote:This is odd. That is exactly how I figured to do this in 1.3 but the option menu does not show up in SMBX2. There IS an SMBX Program in the same folder as SMBX2. Maybe I should use that to use the controller.
You have to quit out of an episode to get to the main menu.
Launcher will see a redesign in the future.
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby rixithechao » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:37 pm

SnifitGuy wrote:
In addition to everything Enjl and Hoeloe said, I'd like to stress that the whole "certain features grouped into a specific file or something" is a fundamental practice in programming in general, not just Lua/LunaLua. The point of these APIs is not to lock off functionality behind some intimidating barrier but to provide a reusable set of features that are easy to enable and configure. That's why we sometimes call them "helper libraries".

Here's another (rather simplified) way to look at it:

Programming is condensing a bunch of complex math and resource management into a set of simple commands and values.
Scripting is using those simple commands and values to control object behavior and that kinda stuff.

When you're asking how to add features to LunaLua, you're effectively asking "how do I program in Lua", and that requires having a strong enough grasp of the language's nuances so you don't screw up like I did and make a convoluted, buggy mess like cinematX. But if you just want to script stuff in LunaLua, that's just a matter of using the LunaLua classes and APIs to script your levels and episodes, and... well, as Hoeloe and Enjl explained, you still need a general understanding of Lua. But you don't need to be an expert.

We do our best to document LunaLua's features and the APIs we write to make them more accessible for folks trying to use them for scripting. So yes, we are working to make all this stuff more usable and understandable for everyone. We have been from the start. But it takes time; it's a process, it doesn't happen overnight. And we do it as a hobby, not a full-time job.

If anyone's interested in helping us with creating and maintaining wiki pages, it would be greatly appreciated. And for any peeps with a fair amount of Lua experience who'd like to help with developing new libraries, we're looking into setting up project management and crowdsourcing resources in discodehaus.
Some people just cannot avoid the ads on MediaFire, even with both common sense and popup blockers. It's always a good idea to provide an alternate download link with an ad-free file host such as Dropbox or Google Drive.

Also play Bug Fables, the devs have confirmed that they got their royalties from Dangen and the game is really freaking good.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby KILROCK » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:41 pm

What's the point of the launcher anyway? What was wrong with the title screen?
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Ljw1765 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:53 pm

KILROCK wrote:What's the point of the launcher anyway? What was wrong with the title screen?
It allows episode creators to show a custom "launch page" of sorts for their episodes, allowing them to notify players about updates or other things. Also, if I'm right it also is the only way to get to the new editor. There's also a "delete save" feature in it that otherwise would not be available in SMBX itself. Oh, and I think I also remember hearing that it either does or will support allowing you to choose the new characters right away without having to switch to them mid-episode.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Cedur » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:33 pm

Ljw1765 wrote:Also, if I'm right it also is the only way to get to the new editor
You can always access the PGE from the path data --> PGE, scroll down to pge_editor.exe. You can even attach it to your taskbar.
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Still using the legacy editor? Get SMBX2 and PGE, it will improve your experience significantly. Here's why. And remember, Yoshis are tools to be used and discarded.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby AirSeus » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:01 pm

Enjl wrote:Image
Friendly reminder that this block exists in beta 3 and is super awesome!
Huh, I never knew that type of block was a thing in 2.0.
I dunno, something inspirational is supposed to go here so here I go:

Realize the difference between criticism and hate.
Criticism is direct feedback about the level that helps and tells you what you could do better and/or what you could expand upon.
Hate is direct insults towards you/your level that tell you nothing other than how bad you are.

AKA: Don't cry at every responce you get, just ignore hate and respond to criticism.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Ljw1765 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:17 pm

Supershroom wrote:
Ljw1765 wrote:Also, if I'm right it also is the only way to get to the new editor
You can always access the PGE from the path data --> PGE, scroll down to pge_editor.exe. You can even attach it to your taskbar.
Ah, OK. Noted.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby SnifitGuy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:59 am

rockythechao wrote:
SnifitGuy wrote:
In addition to everything Enjl and Hoeloe said, I'd like to stress that the whole "certain features grouped into a specific file or something" is a fundamental practice in programming in general, not just Lua/LunaLua. The point of these APIs is not to lock off functionality behind some intimidating barrier but to provide a reusable set of features that are easy to enable and configure. That's why we sometimes call them "helper libraries".

Here's another (rather simplified) way to look at it:

Programming is condensing a bunch of complex math and resource management into a set of simple commands and values.
Scripting is using those simple commands and values to control object behavior and that kinda stuff.

When you're asking how to add features to LunaLua, you're effectively asking "how do I program in Lua", and that requires having a strong enough grasp of the language's nuances so you don't screw up like I did and make a convoluted, buggy mess like cinematX. But if you just want to script stuff in LunaLua, that's just a matter of using the LunaLua classes and APIs to script your levels and episodes, and... well, as Hoeloe and Enjl explained, you still need a general understanding of Lua. But you don't need to be an expert.

We do our best to document LunaLua's features and the APIs we write to make them more accessible for folks trying to use them for scripting. So yes, we are working to make all this stuff more usable and understandable for everyone. We have been from the start. But it takes time; it's a process, it doesn't happen overnight. And we do it as a hobby, not a full-time job.

If anyone's interested in helping us with creating and maintaining wiki pages, it would be greatly appreciated. And for any peeps with a fair amount of Lua experience who'd like to help with developing new libraries, we're looking into setting up project management and crowdsourcing resources in discodehaus.
I am aware of the database with a list of all functions, but it makes no attempt at explaining an example as to what a Lua program would look like. Yes, there are the examples, but they do not show the code in its syntax. It gives a list of all these functions that you can screw around with, but then it gets into "disable x before you do y, you need x code before y code, etc." so as you can see it is quite overwhelming to us stupid people down here while y'all up there in Lua heaven understand whatever da fuq "disable function x" means out of context.
Enjl wrote: 1) Hoeloe's post.
2) I am working on reviving the old tutorial series. It's not at a sharable state yet because I'm currently dying from real-life stress but that's beside the point. Tutorial series is coming and it will cover Lua basics before going into SMBX specifics.
3) I've had countless exchanges with him in the past which have set the tone for this exchange. I am frequently helping out many people with their lunalua problems, not just on codehaus, but this is a kind of scenario where I know I would be frustrated just a few minutes after explaining what a boolean is.
4) Many of the "dark mysterious systems" come down to arithmetic and usage of Lua's basic capabilities in clever ways. The SMBX-specific functions are a conveniency that builds on top of that and is much easier to understand once you got a hang of coding as a whole. One of my friends which I'm trying to help out is missing these basics but knows some of the extended stuff that's possible, and it helps him exactly 0, as he is incapable of getting code running on his own.
5) Much like everything else in life, programming comes down to a matter of interest and good googling. I am self-taught in lua without much prior knowledge in programming, and much like everything else you have a higher chance at succeeding if you can get yourself interested in the topic. The reason why the community isn't fluid in it is because many people don't care enough to research or actively learn the language, which isn't a bad thing because ultimately everything comes down to interests.
If I had known of the previous exchanges between you and him, I would have said nothing. I stand behind my point, however, that learning LunaLua is exceedingly overwhelming. Luna is touted as this whole thing that can add so many features, but if the only people who can use it (besides the basic "print text" function and similar basic things) are those who have prior knowledge about Lua as a language, then there is an increasing divide within the community, and so LunaLua becomes something like a "secret society". At no fault of anyone, mind you, but I do not like the whole "We're doing so many things with LunaLua. You can do x, y, and z." when this is useless unless you have years of experience with the language. Again, I'm not faulting anyone, but I really would like to see more features that benefit the average user as opposed to so many things that benefit only experienced users. It puts up a huge barrier, because when you get to some things like contests, people who are experienced in LunaLua will know how to pull off amazing feats while average users will only be able to use some weird tricks regarding layers and events, and because LunaLua (once you know how to fully utilize all its capabilities) is much more efficient and less of a nightmare when it comes to formatting and such (you cannot argue that going through numerous layers and events is more tedious), but because it will be relatively easy for experienced coders, they will be able to do many more things with Lua than users can do with layers/events, making those who do not use LunaLua at a huge disadvantage because they can't make so many cool things. I do agree that it is the responsibility of the user to learn a language hands down, but I also think it's the responsibility of those using the techniques to help guide us stupid people.
Spinda wrote:
SnifitGuy wrote:
Enjl wrote:
yeah just ignore the discodehaus aka the place everyone is led to when they need help
Yeah, just go to the place where tons of other people are talking about random things, and plus, a place where nobody might be online. A database is better, but none exists. Also, I said "tutorial"; someone answering your questions is not a tutorial.
Hoeloe wrote:
Spinda wrote:
SnifitGuy wrote:
yeah just ignore the discodehaus aka the place everyone is led to when they need help
Also the reason why people ask you to learn basic Lua first is because, like anything, you need an understanding of the basics to be able to deal with the more complex stuff. People are asking you to use the wealth of online resources to learn about Lua's structure and syntax (and are usually willing to help you do that if you ask) before you dive into complex SMBX programming. There is a reason we ask you to do this: it is substantially faster and more rewarding than just handing you the code. You can learn Lua in a week if you make the effort to do so, even if you've never programmed before.
Lua, to my knowledge, is vastly filled with all different functions. I doubt you could be fluent in a week, but I do agree it is better to learn the structure and syntax. Problem is, and again, I haven't seen any good tutorials, because they all go from "hello world" to <insert lua jargon here> without explaining the functions.

tl;dr No tldr 4 you
If I missed anything, plz say so; It's a lot of crap to respond to, lol...

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby h2643 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:28 am

Enjl wrote:Image
1F0!?! !!

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Enjl » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:33 am

SnifitGuy wrote:If I missed anything, plz say so; It's a lot of crap to respond to, lol...
No comment on my note about the upcoming tutorial series?
SnifitGuy wrote:Yeah, just go to the place where tons of other people are talking about random things, and plus, a place where nobody might be online. A database is better, but none exists. Also, I said "tutorial"; someone answering your questions is not a tutorial.
Codehaus is frequented by the entire 2.0 team and many more competent lua peeps who are willing to help any newcomer out as good as they can.
Also we got the wiki:
http://wohlsoft.ru/pgewiki/Category:LunaLua_API

It's in need of some restructuring, but this is where you can find everything the language has to offer.
This page in particular contains documentation for APIs that have been created by first and third parties:
http://wohlsoft.ru/pgewiki/Category:Lun ... _libraries
h2643 wrote:1F0!?! !!
I meant the ice block but yes we have 1f0 too :D
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby Hoeloe » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:00 pm

SnifitGuy wrote: Lua, to my knowledge, is vastly filled with all different functions. I doubt you could be fluent in a week, but I do agree it is better to learn the structure and syntax. Problem is, and again, I haven't seen any good tutorials, because they all go from "hello world" to <insert lua jargon here> without explaining the functions.

tl;dr No tldr 4 you
If I missed anything, plz say so; It's a lot of crap to respond to, lol...
So you're making a lot of assumptions here, and most of them are wrong. Fun fact: most of the 2.0 dev team had never used Lua before developing 2.0. Several of the team had never done programming of any sort before, and yes it took only 1-2 weeks for them to get enough knowledge of the language to usefully program. Will 1-2 weeks give you deep insight into every facet of the language? No, of course not, but it will give you what's called a "working knowledge", which means you can more or less work your way around it enough to build fun things.

Secondly, you assume that to be able to program usefully in Lua you have to remember every single function. This is a complete fallacy and totally untrue. In fact, no-one knows every little detail of the language. That's why we have documentation - it's not to teach you how to use the language so much as to act as a reference so you don't have to remember every detail, only broad strokes. I'm constantly looking up function calls I've used hundreds of times, even ones I designed, because I just can't remember it all, and I don't have to.

Lastly, as I mentioned, documentation is not designed to teach you how to use the language. Of course trying to use it that way will be awkward and difficult. There is a HUGE difference between documentation and a tutorial. A tutorial teaches you how to do something, while documentation acts as a quick reference look up so you don't have to remember thousands upon thousands of specific function calls.

Your complaints at Lua have been mostly based on false assumptions and a lack of effort (such as asking for help - which is by far the best way to learn). I know that I'm a seasoned programmer, so I haven't had to learn Lua from a non-programmer's perspective, but I DID have to learn to program at one point, and for many of the 2.0 dev team, LunaLua IS their first programming experience.

I will concede on one point though. To a non-programmer, LunaLua DOES look daunting. However, there are plenty of resources to help you through that, and as you learn it, it rapidly becomes much less daunting than you might think.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby underFlo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:06 pm

saying "all those people that do cool stuff have prior knowledge" is kind of really wrong because barely anyone I know actually knew Lua before getting into LunaLua, with LunaLua being the reason to learn Lua.

Also, discodehaus has a channel dedicated to help so I'm not sure if you've even been there once. I'd also argue that getting specialised help has the potential to be a lot more helpful to new users because it tells them where exactly they're wrong etc.
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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby rixithechao » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:32 pm

SnifitGuy... if you had bothered to check any of the API pages I linked to, you would've found that they have "How To Use" sections -- which are essentially tutorials for those APIs -- and/or example code you can copy and paste into a level's lunadll/lua/luna.lua file.

pipecannon.lua's example code is even commented, and it has a picture to illustrate how the angle property works.
Some people just cannot avoid the ads on MediaFire, even with both common sense and popup blockers. It's always a good idea to provide an alternate download link with an ad-free file host such as Dropbox or Google Drive.

Also play Bug Fables, the devs have confirmed that they got their royalties from Dangen and the game is really freaking good.

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Re: SMBX 2.0 Beta 3

Postby SnifitGuy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:28 pm

I won't bother with another quote, seeing it as long and horrible to manage...
@Enjil: That's good to know. I thought there was only a general discord that was being linked which had some members who knew Luna as opposed to having a majority (or at least substantial) group providing help.
@Hoeloe: Well, it's not my fault that I didn't know how much experience the dev team has. It's not like they blatantly state whether they're newbies or pros. Also, regarding your point of looking things up; you still need to have a general idea as to what each function does. It's not like you're going to search through many pages of documentation without some idea of a function to find one thing that does what you want. Besides, you might find something better after some digging.
@Spinda: Same response as to Enjil.
@Rockythechao: There is one page on how to create an API; the other examples are really overwhelming whereas the one on how to basically create an API in general seems more structured as opposed to throwing you into the middle of things.


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