Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses 1.3

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Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses 1.3

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:05 pm

This tutorial-level was inspired in part by Flying Brick's "How NOT to Make a Level," but it was mainly inspired by Ludwig's Flaming Fortress and countless other levels that have boring, poorly-done "custom" boss battles against SMBX's pre-programmed AIs (not to mention all the ones where the boss fight is literally just the boss NPC in an empty room). Whenever someone tried to defend this, the argument went something like "SMBX isn't capable of allowing players to make new boss AIs," to which I replied "that's not what I'm asking for." It's possible to make fun and unique boss battles with SMBX's pre-programmed AI; you just have to know how, and that's what I hope to teach with this level. Even if you consider yourself a veteran level designer, you should still give this a try; you might learn a thing or two.

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All right, everything should be fixed now, but any feedback is still appreciated.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/a0g66 ... _Level.zip


P.S. In this level, I give multiple examples of how to make a fun pre-programmed AI fight without having to put forth much effort. Due to how little effort it took to make these examples, I'd like to preemptively apologize in case someone has already made a fight similar to one in my level. None of the bosses are meant to allude to or rip off any custom boss fight that was made before them.

P.P.S. This tutorial strictly covers the use of SMBX's pre-programmed bosses. If you want to know how to turn normal NPCs into bosses, Flying Brick has a tutorial for that already:
http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =35&t=6110

The only thing I can think of that Flying Brick doesn't mention is that, if you want the boss's hit-box to move, you have to select the first HP-NPC, go to "Attach to Layer," and select the hurt-state NPC, which itself will need to be attached to the second HP-NPC, which will need to be attached to a duplicate hurt-state NPC, and so on.
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby bossedit8 » Sat May 09, 2015 1:43 pm

You know, making something unique as a regular SMBX's boss AI could be nice but even if you have just the regular boss' sprite by it's own is also good. What I honestly don't like is that your particular bosses in your level right here that you made are next to impossible to beat (never played it but I watched someone played it but it's not a puplical video)! Also, why do we have to take advice for that if the regular bosses are already challenging enough to beat (except if it's getting repetitive but still!)? Take for example the SMB2 Wart. He's already tough alone to beat him without any extra hazards at the arena. We are allowed to make a regular boss fight in SMBX without any extra hazards to make but just for being more entertaining to the players by adding extra hazards and also being incredibly judgeimental about that is something we literally have to follow all the time? That isn't a good idea especially for newer members that are new in SMBX and also don't really know how to even use layers and event all too much! Of course we can do it but regular SMBX's bosses are also challenging enough to beat!

So basically, regular SMBX bosses no matter if it's incredible simplistic aren't bad in the slightest especially related for an SMBX Episode like what I did back then! Of course it's not that special to look at but they aren't bad in the slightest!

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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby RudeGuy » Sat May 09, 2015 2:01 pm

bossedit8 wrote:text
Just so you know, the default bosses were used a lot in the past SMBX episodes, even in those which are still known even if they are old, not to mention you can play the game where the default SMBX bosses comes from to play, that's why they're boring and old.
im bored

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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby bossedit8 » Sat May 09, 2015 2:05 pm

RudeGuy07 wrote:Just so you know, the default bosses were used a lot in the past SMBX episodes, even in those which are still known even if they are old, not to mention you can play the game where the default SMBX bosses comes from to play, that's why they're boring and old.
I know but that doesn't mean they're boring to utulize a regular boss in SMBX. Of course it's repetitive but even then, you can still use them and do it in the regular way of what SMBX is capeable of doing instead of doing it the complicate way.

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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Sat May 09, 2015 3:09 pm

Woah, I finally got feedback! Wasn't expecting that.
bossedit8 wrote:your particular bosses in your level right here that you made are next to impossible to beat (never played it but I watched someone played it but it's not a puplical video)
If you haven't played it yourself, then you can't judge it. Maybe the person you watched play the level just sucks, like DarkMatt.
bossedit8 wrote:regular SMBX's bosses are also challenging enough to beat!
I'll give you Wart and the SMB1 Bowser, but surely you're not trying to defend all of them, right? You can't possibly say that fighting a Boom Boom, Birdo, Iggy, Ludwig, Mouser, or even an SMB3 Bowser in an empty room by themselves is challenging, right? If so, you don't deserve that "VERY GOOD SMBX PLAYER" banner that you have in your signature.

Besides, (and I know I forgot to mention this in the first post or the level, but still) the tutorial is meant for beginners to be able to use a pre-programmed AI in a way that not only isn't boring for the player, but also doesn't take much effort to make. It doesn't necessarily have to be extra hazards as long as the fight is differentiated in some meaningful way.
bossedit8 wrote:
RudeGuy07 wrote:Just so you know, the default bosses were used a lot in the past SMBX episodes, even in those which are still known even if they are old, not to mention you can play the game where the default SMBX bosses comes from to play, that's why they're boring and old.
I know but that doesn't mean they're boring to utulize a regular boss in SMBX.
Unless something unique is done with the boss fight, whether it's through txt codes, clever block placement, and/or extra hazards, then yes, yes it does mean that they're boring.
bossedit8 wrote:Of course it's repetitive
My point exactly.
bossedit8 wrote:but even then, you can still use them and do it in the regular way of what SMBX is capeable of doing instead of doing it the complicate way.
I'm going to paraphrase Jurassic Park: Just because you can do it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

By the way, not all of the bosses are made more difficult: I nerfed my SMB1 Bowser so that the player doesn't have to time its jump (since its jumping is quite random). Also, for the Wart fight, there's a safe spot on the far left of the room so the player doesn't have to actively avoid Wart's bubbles.
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby bossedit8 » Sat May 09, 2015 3:57 pm

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:If you haven't played it yourself, then you can't judge it. Maybe the person you watched play the level just sucks, like DarkMatt.
He doesn't say that it's bad, it's just too much for the player to dodge and react to everything imageable.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:I'll give you Wart and the SMB1 Bowser, but surely you're not trying to defend all of them, right? You can't possibly say that fighting a Boom Boom, Birdo, Iggy, Ludwig, Mouser, or even an SMB3 Bowser in an empty room by themselves is challenging, right? If so, you don't deserve that "VERY GOOD SMBX PLAYER" banner that you have in your signature.
I was just giving out players that are more at the beginner league of playing SMBX, not someone like me who's playing any regular SMBX bosses and beat them with ease with no problems what so ever... I was just giving out an example of what a newer player would give out to play SMBX. I have a lot of experience with SMBX and you can obviously see it on most of my videos I made. Don't think I'm bad at the game... I was just giving out an example like I stated before.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Besides, (and I know I forgot to mention this in the first post or the level, but still) the tutorial is meant for beginners to be able to use a pre-programmed AI in a way that not only isn't boring for the player, but also doesn't take much effort to make. It doesn't necessarily have to be extra hazards as long as the fight is differentiated in some meaningful way.
But members have the capeability to make a regular themed level or arena and still it looks decent enough even for not being unique by it's own fashion. This is why "The Invasion 2" was surely simplistic but fun at the same time. We don't necessarily have to make a level or even a arena being incredible unique you know. We always can make a classical level and still it looks good.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
bossedit8 wrote:I know but that doesn't mean they're boring to utulize a regular boss in SMBX.
Unless something unique is done with the boss fight, whether it's through txt codes, clever block placement, and/or extra hazards, then yes, yes it does mean that they're boring.
No, they aren't!
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
bossedit8 wrote:Of course it's repetitive
My point exactly.
That doesn't mean it's bad!
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Just because you can do it doesn't mean it's a good idea.
That's your opinion!

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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby Enjl » Sat May 09, 2015 4:23 pm

@bossedit8 have you found beating boomboomb for the 27th time exciting?
Is replaying 1-1 of SMB1 over and over fun?
I don't think so, unless you want to invent a game genre about fast hedgehogs.
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Sat May 09, 2015 5:33 pm

bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:If you haven't played it yourself, then you can't judge it.
He doesn't say that it's bad,
but you did.
bossedit8 wrote:I have a lot of experience with SMBX and you can obviously see it on most of my videos I made.
Like when you got hit by a Koopa on flat terrain in Secluded Sanctuary, or that time you got hit twice by stationary Cat Goombas (nerfed Tweeter sprite-swaps) in Great Grasslands.
bossedit8 wrote:This is why "The Invasion 2" was surely simplistic but fun at the same time.
The Invasion 2 was fun despite the bosses being carbon copies of their original counterparts, and even then, the SMB3 Bowser fight was made unique by forcing the player to activate doughnut block sprite-swaps in its second phase to beat it. After all, The Invasion 2 is basically just a tech demo of what SMBX can do, not a be-all-and-end-all way to design levels.
bossedit8 wrote:We always can make a classical level and still it looks good.
Don't try to change the subject; we're talking strictly about the use of pre-programmed bosses, not general level design or aesthetics.
bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
bossedit8 wrote:I know but that doesn't mean they're boring to utulize a regular boss in SMBX.
Unless something unique is done with the boss fight, whether it's through txt codes, clever block placement, and/or extra hazards, then yes, yes it does mean that they're boring.
No, they aren't!
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
bossedit8 wrote:Of course it's repetitive
My point exactly.
That doesn't mean it's bad!
http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... 90#p141225

I know you're trying to defend so-called "newcomers," but so far, after all the times I've linked to this level in my reviews, you're the only one to complain about it, and nobody agrees with you. I doubt even the person who made the game-play video you saw agrees with you.

Besides, even the newcomers already have experience fighting these bosses by having played their source material, or, at the borderline least, The Invasion 2.
bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Just because you can do it doesn't mean it's a good idea.
That's your opinion!
No, that's a fact. Facts are definite statements and can be proven right or wrong; opinions are just someone's personal beliefs.

Example:
FACT: Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
OPINION: Fighting SMBX's pre-programmed boss AIs all by themselves in flat, empty rooms never gets boring.

The opinion in the example is your own, bossedit8, and like I wrote earlier, nobody agrees with you.
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Why some pre-programmed bosses go too far

Postby Superiorstar » Sat May 09, 2015 6:30 pm

Why are you making fun of bossedit8's experience in levels? have you ever heard of a mistake? is superiority is much better than your experiences, he's beaten levels you wouldn't have the balls to beat let alone review.

I also agree that newcomers can sometimes have bad levels, plus if it's one thing to talk about it's the boss battle levels, there are a lot of good levels with good boss battles in empty room, either representing the game that they're sprites are taken from or just being a super event boss that is original, there are also bosses that take this too far, like the bosses in your level, some of them are dowright retardedly stupid to the point where I had to erase some of them, It kind of reminds me of an NSMBwii styled airship with a boom boom that has little to no place to hit him, it's better to just camp him out in the corner, just like that SMB3 bowser with flying fish and firebars every where.
What my point is that it's good to not have a pre-programmed AI boss is your level, but a POORLY post-programmed boss battle isn't good for the level either.

Oh and another thing IMNBH4L. Just because you think your boss is good doesn't mean others will. If it's anything I learned from you it's that you think that all your bosses are good, well it's time to git gud because it's the opinion of others that count in a judgement.
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Re: Why that's still better than nothing

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Sat May 09, 2015 7:44 pm

Superiorstar wrote:Why are you making fun of bossedit8's experience in levels?
Because, from what I've seen, the majority of his deaths/injuries involve him trying to show off and failing. Even when he's playing relatively hard levels, like Sharp Objects are Usually Deadly, he'll try to show off and get killed because of it.
Superiorstar wrote:there are a lot of good levels with good boss battles in empty room, either representing the game that they're sprites are taken from
I'm not arguing that the boss's room needs to have other hazards to be good; I'm arguing that if the player is going to use a pre-programmed AI as a boss, he/she needs to do something unique with it to make it not-boring, whether it's by using txt codes (like PROX's Dark Bowser fight), clever block placement (can't think of an example at the moment), and/or, as demonstrated in my tutorial, adding other hazards to the room. It's just that adding other hazards is the easiest way to accomplish this, and my tutorial was made with the intention of showing people how to make unique fights without having to put forth much effort, not how to make unique boss fights that would work as the boss in an episode's world 1. This level isn't meant as a "baby steps for the player" tutorial, it's meant as a "baby steps for the creator" tutorial. You're not supposed to play the level and think "wow, those fights were easy;" you're supposed to play the level and think "oh, I see how he did that; I can do that, too!" That may not have been the best way to go about doing this, but that's why I asked for feedback in the first post.

Of course, if the only difference between the level creator's fight and the original fight is the graphic, that doesn't count. You may have a Boom-Boom sprite-swap in a flat, empty room with no other hazards, but if that Boom-Boom doesn't also have txt codes to alter its AI, it's still just a boring ol' Boom-Boom battle, and that's what I'm trying to prevent.
Superiorstar wrote:or just being a super event boss that is original,
I wholeheartedly encourage that; I don't know why you thought I didn't. In fact, if that kind of boss is done well, it won't need anything else in its arena to be not-boring (didn't I also mention this in my tutorial?).

Of course, Flying Brick already made a tutorial for that. If the level creator wants to try to get away with using only a pre-programmed AI as a boss, that's where my tutorial comes into play.
Superiorstar wrote:there are also bosses that take this too far, like the bosses in your level, some of them are dowright retardedly stupid to the point where I had to erase some of them, It kind of reminds me of an NSMBwii styled airship with a boom boom that has little to no place to hit him, it's better to just camp him out in the corner, just like that SMB3 bowser with flying fish and firebars every where.
What my point is that it's good to not have a pre-programmed AI boss is your level, but a POORLY post-programmed boss battle isn't good for the level either.

Oh and another thing IMNBH4L. Just because you think your boss is good doesn't mean others will. If it's anything I learned from you it's that you think that all your bosses are good, well it's time to git gud because it's the opinion of others that count in a judgement.
You know what? I completely agree with all of this.

But that's not what bossedit8 and I are arguing about.

Bossedit8 believes that fighting an unaltered pre-programmed boss AI in a completely flat, empty room devoid of anything besides the boss and the floor (with the exception of a weapon generator for those bosses that can't be killed otherwise) over and over and over again is fun. Do you honestly agree with that?

Besides, even if the level creator has a "POORLY post-programmed boss battle," at least he/she tried. If it's just the pre-programmed boss in a flat, empty room, that means the creator didn't even try, and to me, that's worse than the near-impossible custom bosses because it shows that the level creator is too lazy to even try to make something different.

"At least try to make something different." That's the motto of my tutorial.
Superiorstar wrote:it's better to just camp him out in the corner, just like that SMB3 bowser with flying fish and firebars every where.
Wait, that boss can be broken? Dang it...

And yeah, in retrospect, the fish projectiles might have made that boss too hard.
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby bossedit8 » Sat May 09, 2015 8:21 pm

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
bossedit8 wrote:He doesn't say that it's bad,
but you did.
I didn't!
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Like when you got hit by a Koopa on flat terrain in Secluded Sanctuary, or that time you got hit twice by stationary Cat Goombas (nerfed Tweeter sprite-swaps) in Great Grasslands.
Mistakes happens. Everyone can make mistakes. No one is 100% perfect.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:The Invasion 2 was fun despite the bosses being carbon copies of their original counterparts,
This is why I'm telling it! Classic bosses for sure are repetitive but still useful on their own ways!
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Don't try to change the subject; we're talking strictly about the use of pre-programmed bosses, not general level design or aesthetics.
Didn't phrase it correctly but levels do count as bosses aswell anyway if they at least have one of them.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:I know you're trying to defend so-called "newcomers," but so far, after all the times I've linked to this level in my reviews, you're the only one to complain about it, and nobody agrees with you. I doubt even the person who made the game-play video you saw agrees with you.
Even if they don't agree with me, it's just that there's always something that is repetitive but still having fun about the main game like what SMB3 did with all those Boom Booms and like a few of those Koopalings (2 types of Boom Booms at least and multiple type of arenas for every Koopalings) and rarely SMW with those Reznor Fights that are the same for each Fortresses in the game. At least as of what SMBX did it's sort of different like that the AIs aren't 100% the same as of what the original does. I know it get's repetitive for looking at the original AIs and predict them with ease and gets boring after a while but that's how a designer made it and everyone can design like that how it should be by their own originalities and such! If it gets repetitive, sure, it gets boring but look at the positives as of what the SMBX Episode has to offer to play with you while the design is still good even for lack of boss' variety like in SMB, SMB2 (I know it was an old experience of what they tried and made but still)!
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Besides, even the newcomers already have experience fighting these bosses by having played their source material, or, at the borderline least, The Invasion 2.
Not always! Newcomers do have a lot of troubles playing at least most of the games especially if you not even have ever seen or heard about the game. With that, the players have no idea as of how everything for example the boss' AI works until you replay it multiple times until you actually know how to do it. To be honest, back then when SMBX was fresh at 2009-2010, we (we as in 2 Player Mode) literally had no idea as of how to pick up a SMB2 sprite because we are so used to the original SMB2 but to actually do it you have to hold the 'DOWN' key and while holding it, press the 'RUN' key to pick it up. This is at least one of the reasons why we hasn't get used to SMBX a lot yet back in years ago (Specific: 2010). Later on at ~2011, no issues while playing SMBX.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:FACT: Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
OPINION: Fighting SMBX's pre-programmed boss AIs all by themselves in flat, empty rooms never gets boring.
I get it now!

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Because, from what I've seen, the majority of his deaths/injuries involve him trying to show off and failing. Even when he's playing relatively hard levels, like Sharp Objects are Usually Deadly, he'll try to show off and get killed because of it.
It's not a bad thing to fail at a relatively hard level especially in an SMBX Episode! Infact, I also cut my videos to the point where I last died at (or something else) to prevent from dragging out the main video. It's not that I'm bad at it at all but having to do a Level that is literally at the "Kaizo" limit, you know there is gonna be at least some deaths in my run that I even have nearly not clue what's going on if I never even played a level before. Seriously!
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby PROX » Sat May 09, 2015 8:59 pm

Also a pre-programmed AI by itself is ok if the speed is altered (not too much but just enough to make the boss fight more interesting.) It's also a good idea to add things sure, but there are some cases where adding additional hazards can be a bad thing if the boss is already hard enough on it's own. BTW Bossedit8 was watching me play your level and there were some bosses that were next to impossible to beat (Specifically your birdo and Ludwig bosses). If you're going to make a tutorial of what you should incorporate in a boss, at least make it more practical so players have a general idea of what they're supposed to do. Some noob at level designing might emulate you and make a boss that's next to impossible to beat. If you want someone to make good bosses, at least have a good example of what you can utilize in a boss. Also it's very hard to pay attention to both the text and the boss fight at the same time. It kind of defeats the purpose of having a tutorial if the player has a hard time reading it without exiting out the level and viewing it with the level editor.
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby FanofSMBX » Sat May 09, 2015 9:13 pm

I'm hardly impressed by any SMBX boss compared to games like Sonic 3 and Kirby Super Star. Yay for being my own person?

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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby PROX » Sat May 09, 2015 9:15 pm

FanofSMBX wrote:I'm hardly impressed by any SMBX boss compared to games like Sonic 3 and Kirby Super Star. Yay for being my own person?
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Sat May 09, 2015 10:45 pm

bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
bossedit8 wrote:He doesn't say that it's bad,
but you did.
I didn't!
Okay, you didn't say it was bad, but you did say that the bosses were "next to impossible to beat" even though you never played the level yourself and only judged it based on someone else's play-through. That's what I was criticizing you for.
bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Like when you got hit by a Koopa on flat terrain in Secluded Sanctuary, or that time you got hit twice by stationary Cat Goombas (nerfed Tweeter sprite-swaps) in Great Grasslands.
Mistakes happens. Everyone can make mistakes. No one is 100% perfect.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Because, from what I've seen, the majority of his deaths/injuries involve him trying to show off and failing. Even when he's playing relatively hard levels, like Sharp Objects are Usually Deadly, he'll try to show off and get killed because of it.
It's not a bad thing to fail at a relatively hard level especially in an SMBX Episode! Infact, I also cut my videos to the point where I last died at (or something else) to prevent from dragging out the main video. It's not that I'm bad at it at all but having to do a Level that is literally at the "Kaizo" limit, you know there is gonna be at least some deaths in my run that I even have nearly not clue what's going on if I never even played a level before. Seriously!
I'm not saying you're bad because you get hit in hard levels.

I'm saying you're bad because you get hit on easy levels, like the aforementioned Secluded Sanctuary and Great Grasslands, and on some of the simplest obstacles, too. Go back and watch your play-throughs of those levels and tell me it isn't embarrassing. Those might have technically been mistakes, but if you weren't trying to show off, you wouldn't have gotten hit.

As a side note, you also try to show off in hard levels, even though showing off is what causes you to get hit in easy levels.
bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:The Invasion 2 was fun despite the bosses being carbon copies of their original counterparts,
This is why I'm telling it! Classic bosses for sure are repetitive but still useful on their own ways!
NO! You misunderstood me!

I never said that The Invasion 2's bosses were fun despite the bosses being pre-programmed AIs in empty rooms.

I said that The Invasion 2 as a whole is good despite the fact that its bosses area all just pre-programmed AIs in empty rooms.

In other words, The Invasion 2 is made worse by the use of pre-programmed bosses in empty rooms, but the rest of the episode is still well designed.
bossedit8 wrote:like what SMB3 did with all those Boom Booms and like a few of those Koopalings (2 types of Boom Booms at least and multiple type of arenas for every Koopalings)
The Boom-Booms had different arenas and occasionally different AIs (like the ones that fly to the top of the screen after you hit them once), and the Koopalings are also differentiated. The designers of SMB3 knew that fighting the exact same Boom-Boom or Koopaling AI in exactly the same arena multiple times would get boring, so they made each one slightly different. That's what I'm trying to get people to do with this tutorial, and that's definitely not what you were trying to defend in your earlier posts.
bossedit8 wrote:and rarely SMW with those Reznor Fights that are the same for each Fortresses in the game.
That's a good example of what not to do. The boss was unique during the first fight, but after each consecutive use of the exact same boss, it gets boring.
bossedit8 wrote:At least as of what SMBX did it's sort of different like that the AIs aren't 100% the same as of what the original does.
They were nerfed, aka made easier. Plus, they are 100% the same between SMBX levels, and like SMW's Reznor fights, fighting literally the exact same boss in the exact same arena gets boring quickly.
bossedit8 wrote:I know it get's repetitive for looking at the original AIs and predict them with ease and gets boring after a while but that's how a designer made it and everyone can design like that how it should be by their own originalities and such!
So...are you saying that if multiple people copy one of your bosses (the exact same boss for all of them) and use it in their levels, that's a good thing? Of course not! Even ignoring the plagiarism aspect of this example, people would soon get sick of fighting the exact same boss over and over, and, at the end of the day, the only thing accomplished is that the value of the original is diminished because of its over-saturation.
bossedit8 wrote:If it gets repetitive, sure, it gets boring but look at the positives as of what the SMBX Episode has to offer
While it is good to acknowledge the positive aspects, it isn't good to simply ignore the negative aspects. You can ignore them all you want, but they're still there, and they're still problematic. The entire point of my tutorial is to help people realize the negative aspects of their levels and be able to improve upon them. That's what the point of tutorials is: they teach people.
bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Besides, even the newcomers already have experience fighting these bosses by having played their source material, or, at the borderline least, The Invasion 2.
Not always! Newcomers do have a lot of troubles playing at least most of the games especially if you not even have ever seen or heard about the game. With that, the players have no idea as of how everything for example the boss' AI works until you replay it multiple times until you actually know how to do it.
If the newcomers play through the entirety of The Invasion 2, an episode that comes with SMBX, they will be familiarized enough with the bosses that they will be able to adapt to a boss fight with an alternate arena, txt codes, and/or additional hazards, even if he/she has never played a Mario game before. Your argument assumes all newcomers to be dunces.
bossedit8 wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Bossedit8 believes that fighting an unaltered pre-programmed boss AI in a completely flat, empty room devoid of anything besides the boss and the floor (with the exception of a weapon generator for those bosses that can't be killed otherwise) over and over and over again is fun.
For me it's just decent at least even for being repetitive... of course fighting the same exact enemy gets irritating but that's how Nintendo did it back then sometimes and it's tecnically not that bad to replicate it too especially for a remake. Of course it's not interesting for the players but still.
Wow...there's so much wrong with your argument, I'll have to spoiler it:
Spoiler: show
bossedit8 wrote:but that's how Nintendo did it back then
Just because a corporation does something doesn't mean it's a good idea. Corporations are run by people, and people make mistakes. You should know this.
bossedit8 wrote:it's tecnically not that bad to replicate it too especially for a remake.
That doesn't even have anything to do with SMBX! First of all, remakes are corporations saying "hey, this game is exactly the same as this other game, except it has better graphics and maybe some additional content. If you didn't buy the game the first time, now's the time to buy it." In other words, remakes aren't for the people who already played the original since both versions are nearly identical.

SMBX levels are people saying "Using the best of my creative ability, I have made this level to stand out among all of the other SMBX levels. If this is not the case, let me know what mistakes I've made so that I can improve" [unless the level is posted in Casual Levels]. As you yourself have stated:
bossedit8 wrote:of course fighting the same exact enemy gets irritating
bossedit8 wrote:Of course it's not interesting for the players
You might have rationalized yourself into believing that these fights are fun, but for literally everyone else, this is bad design, and as much as you don't want to admit it, you also know that this is bad design.

SMBX is not meant to be a remake of the original Super Mario Bros. games, and it never was. It was meant as a way for people to be able to use the elements of the original Super Mario Bros. games to make something new and unique. If the level creator simply recreates exactly what has already been made, unless what has been recreated isn't normally available in SMBX, that's simply lazy design, and that's what I'm trying to prevent people from doing; that is the reason my tutorial exists.
PROX wrote:Also a pre-programmed AI by itself is ok if the speed is altered (not too much but just enough to make the boss fight more interesting.) It's also a good idea to add things sure, but there are some cases where adding additional hazards can be a bad thing if the boss is already hard enough on it's own.
Like I wrote earlier: it doesn't necessarily have to be additional hazards as long as the fight is differentiated enough from the original.
PROX wrote: there were some bosses that were next to impossible to beat (Specifically your birdo and Ludwig bosses)
Wait, Birdo?? Seriously?? I can understand Ludwig, but Birdo?? Video, please; I need evidence.

After watching the video, I'll make a patch to try and fix the difficulty.
PROX wrote:Also it's very hard to pay attention to both the text and the boss fight at the same time. It kind of defeats the purpose of having a tutorial if the player has a hard time reading it without exiting out the level and viewing it with the level editor.
I did that so that second-time players wouldn't have to shift through the text each time he/she went to fight the boss again, but in retrospect, you're right; that was a bad idea for a tutorial.
FanofSMBX wrote:I'm hardly impressed by any SMBX boss compared to games like Sonic 3 and Kirby Super Star.
With that kind of attitude...why are you even here? Go join a Sonic 3 or Kirby Super Star hacking community and leave us alone.
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby Superiorstar » Sat May 09, 2015 10:51 pm

I swear if you people don't spoiler your arguments I'm gonna crash.
Anyways I was talking individually when I said "Some people take it too far" just so you know.
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Re: Why some pre-programmed bosses go too far

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Sat May 09, 2015 11:42 pm

Oh, almost forgot:
Superiorstar wrote: he's beaten levels you wouldn't have the balls to beat let alone review.
You don't know that.
PROX wrote:Some noob at level designing might emulate you and make a boss that's next to impossible to beat.
Like I wrote earlier: baby steps. The tutorial is supposed to show designers that it doesn't take much effort to make fighting a pre-programmed AI not-boring, not how to make bosses with a wide range of difficulty. If the designer's resulting boss fight is unfair for whatever reason, feedback should tell the designer exactly what part of the boss is unfair and how it can be fixed, but even then, common sense should let the designer know which layers aren't indicated fast enough, etc.

Also, I'm pretty sure that you're exaggerating that whole "next to impossible" thing, especially since you brought up the Birdo fight as an example. I tested this level multiple times, and I don't see how the Birdo fight is as difficult as you're making it out to be (especially to be equated to the Ludwig fight). I know I didn't give you enough time to respond to my previous comment, but if you show me your video play-through, I'll probably be able to see where I went wrong better than when I just tested the level myself.

By the way, what is with you people and assuming designers are noobs?
I've decided to cancel SMBXville Under Seige. After my 1st Senior year of college, I realized I wouldn't have enough time to devote to finishing my four-level episode. Apologies to those who cared.
My favorite quote on the entire forum:
Spoiler: show
mechamind wrote:
AeroMatter wrote:People who think "autistic" is an adjective and not a verb.
You autistic some people so much with that statement.
My SMBX portfolio:
Spoiler: show
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses

Postby PROX » Sun May 10, 2015 2:51 am

I wasn't talking about all of the bosses, but there were a few that had questionable difficulty. Also I finished recording and I'll have a video up in the near future. (note: I didn't attempt to get to mother brain since that basically means that I have to go through every single boss and I can't beat one of them)
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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses v1.

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » Sun May 10, 2015 9:51 pm

I updated my tutorial!

Changelog:
-Rewrote text so that "add hazards" isn't the only option presented to the player.
-The Ludwig fight is easier.
-The SMB3 Bowser fight is different.
-The safe-zone in Wart's arena has been slightly altered to be even more safe.
-Fixed a typo in Wart's text.
-Added an option where the player can choose whether or not text will interrupt game-play before each fight.
-Left the Birdo fight exactly as it is since I don't understand how that's supposed to be difficult (and nobody has tried to show or explain it to me).

@ PROX:

It has been about 19 hours, and you still haven't uploaded that video.
I've decided to cancel SMBXville Under Seige. After my 1st Senior year of college, I realized I wouldn't have enough time to devote to finishing my four-level episode. Apologies to those who cared.
My favorite quote on the entire forum:
Spoiler: show
mechamind wrote:
AeroMatter wrote:People who think "autistic" is an adjective and not a verb.
You autistic some people so much with that statement.
My SMBX portfolio:
Spoiler: show
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)
SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026

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Re: Dos and don'ts of using SMBX's pre-programmed bosses v1.

Postby Magician » Sun May 10, 2015 10:35 pm

I love this tutorial level, and your style, and the boss designs (well... most of them. But they get your point across). Even though I am rusty enough that I fail at them quite hard.

I noticed that the green shell bounces off the text boxes in SMB1 Bowser's arena.


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