MrCave's Level Hub

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MrCaves
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MrCave's Level Hub

Postby MrCaves » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:43 am

Hi, I make levels I think

Downward Warping[PAL]:
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This level is centered around an exploit/glitch with the player blocks

Sprites by:
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Code by:
Enjl

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Download - https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqog602auo3qy ... g.zip?dl=0

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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby Enjl » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:07 pm

Just letting you know: There's a realistic chance that this level will break in future versions, cause maaaan fuck that glitch in accidental situations, haha.
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby MrCaves » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:30 am

In the previous levels that I posted, you would not believe how many times those player blocks screwed me over. It got to the point where I was like, ok what the hell is going on, so after doing some experimenting I figured it would be interesting to make a level out of it. But yeah, I made this level knowing full well that it would only work on this version. Also, what did you think of the level itself?

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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby Enjl » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:58 am

Haven't gotten around to playing it yet. I'll let you know my thoughts once I played it.

E: Awesome level throughout. Every section is really creative and the checkpoints keep the level from being frustrating from its high difficulty. The thwomp section is probably my favourite, and the autoscroller is the section that took me the longest (once I was through it, I had that thing where my eyes automatically wandered at the speed of the autoscroll to try and keep up). Super cool stuff!
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby Eclipsed » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:58 am

Enjl wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:07 pm
Just letting you know: There's a realistic chance that this level will break in future versions, cause maaaan fuck that glitch in accidental situations, haha.
I don't see why it should be entirely removed. Wouldn't it not be better to create five new player filter blocks for the legacy 1.3 characters, set those to default, and include deprecated versions of the old player characters. For the new characters added, it'd be fine to change them since those aren't used as much.
Essentially, the glitch here isn't something that crashes the game. It's one that has practical and useful applications, since it can allow for decent time saves or really neat level design in normal or kaizo levels.
Overall, it's a glitch that has practical applications and doesn't cause crashes, which has been the basis of the majority of legacy glitches removed or kept in the past.

Edit: It's like how there's older versions of the SMW bower statue in the engine that exists but the newer version is the default.
Last edited by Eclipsed on Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:29 pm

Enjl wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:07 pm
Just letting you know: There's a realistic chance that this level will break in future versions, cause maaaan fuck that glitch in accidental situations, haha.
I mean, I have made two Kaizo levels using this glitch in the past. One of them got 3rd place or so in PixelPest's Kaizo contest and the other one was my judge level of KCXII. I do not see why you would want to remove it when compatibility is the key focal point.

Edit: I also forgot, but I also used it in my KCXIII level which you judged. (Remember the final section of the level based on No Disguise from that Double Vision but in my level, it usedSaws and player blocks?

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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby TheNewGuy » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:47 pm

I absolutely agree with Eclipsed's statement, it doesn't break the game or anything so I don't see why it has to get removed. this is literally equal to removing the crouch clip.
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby Enjl » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:28 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:47 pm
I absolutely agree with Eclipsed's statement, it doesn't break the game or anything so I don't see why it has to get removed. this is literally equal to removing the crouch clip.
Zips are equally annoying tbh and a new enabled-by-default anti-cheese is being looked into.

The problem with player blocks is that there is no suitable override behaviour. Something like an "active only for one player type" block only exists in Redigit's code for the player blocks, which the 13 new player blocks also hook into. As far as I'm aware, adding outright new block types is an impossibility without the source code, so the target is instead ot isolate the bug in Redigit's code and fix that. In short: Deprecating and adding 18 new "fixed" player blocks is not an option in this scenario to my knowledge.
MECHDRAGON777 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:29 pm
I also forgot, but I also used it in my KCXIII level which you judged. (Remember the final section of the level based on No Disguise from that Double Vision but in my level, it usedSaws and player blocks?
That section was downright awful because of your use of this bug.
Eclipsed wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:58 am
that has practical applications
Making an artificial dedicated downwards zip block is literally a handful lines of code that force the player y position downwards. The use cases is so niche that I wouldn't reserve a slot for it in basegame, but making a block pack emulating the behaviour would be trivial.
MECHDRAGON777 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:29 pm
I do not see why you would want to remove it when compatibility is the key focal point.
Because glitchy messes that rely on broken blocks are less important than fixing the intended use case of the broken blocks. I'm not aware of any level prior to SMBX2 that seriously considered using this bug, and even if there is one, you'd have to search far and wide to find a second one. Compatibility between SMBX2 betas was never guaranteed. So for the literally handful of levels from 1.3 that need to get ported, the block pack solution would be trivial to do. Instead of drawing comparisons to "patching zips", it would be more appropriate to drawing parallels to "having to drag a few sizeables down by 1 tile because we improved the graphics" or "having to fix some custom graphics for the smb3 cave tileset".

E:
To solve the compatibility argument, I can think of having the patch only enabled by default for lvlx files. I don't know if that's possible either, though.
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby Eclipsed » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:36 pm

Enjl wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:28 pm
TheNewGuy wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:47 pm
I absolutely agree with Eclipsed's statement, it doesn't break the game or anything so I don't see why it has to get removed. this is literally equal to removing the crouch clip.
Zips are equally annoying tbh and a new enabled-by-default anti-cheese is being looked into.

The problem with player blocks is that there is no suitable override behaviour. Something like an "active only for one player type" block only exists in Redigit's code for the player blocks, which the 13 new player blocks also hook into. As far as I'm aware, adding outright new block types is an impossibility without the source code, so the target is instead ot isolate the bug in Redigit's code and fix that. In short: Deprecating and adding 18 new "fixed" player blocks is not an option in this scenario to my knowledge..
Eclipsed wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:58 am
that has practical applications
Making an artificial dedicated downwards zip block is literally a handful lines of code that force the player y position downwards. The use cases is so niche that I wouldn't reserve a slot for it in basegame, but making a block pack emulating the behaviour would be trivial.
.
If it's difficult to isolate out and easily replicated then it shouldn't be that concerning then.
Will there be an on/off toggle for whether zips are enabled or disabled. Since if they're entirely removed it's a very bad idea.

Zips are more prevalent in design and not exactly niche. In fact, they've been used in major episodes such as Mario Classic, SMWCX, and A2XT series. I think talking time also had something with them.
Moreover, the crouch clip is easier to design around avoiding it then the one used in this level thread.

In fact the majority of zips only happen if the player decides to execute them and virtually almost never happens accidentally.
Floor and Ceiling Clips have tight 1-4 frame windows
Tanooki Statue Clip are luck or you have to intentionally look in the editor for determine if the layout allows you to do so.
Key Clips require a fair amount of precision
NPC Block Top Clips ask you to align yourself near a wall

These clips will only happen if a player decides to choose to do so. In essence, these could layer on top of level design and yield more creative possibilities as time progresses. So removing the zip entirely guts a decent amount of potential. For example, there's a level that uses slopes to zip the player and npc upwards.
I hope that enabled-by-default is implying that there's an option to retain zipping.

Edit: After talking a legacy support system for .lvl and .lvlx files address the issues pretty well.
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[WR] Invasion 2 Any% All Characters in 28:28:602
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[WR] The Princess Cliche in 7:16:263
Spoiler: show
[WR]Another Princess Cliche in 23:44:217
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby 55jedat555 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:49 pm

So the player block glitch is indeed mostly a nuisance and I haven't really seen many uses of it in speedrunning, therefore I agree that making a custom block which recreates this behaviour is a good enough solution for those who want to use it in level design. Patching out zips on the other hand seems like it would cut out quite a fair deal of tech that gets used fairly commonly in speedrunning and occasionally in kaizo (as much as there even is SMBX kaizo). Tying the patch to .lvlx also doesn't sound particularly convincing since it'd limit levels focused around zips in the use of certain new features, such as extra properties for new NPCs which don't save in .lvl files (unless that's subject to change in the future, in which case it's not an issue). All in all, I don't believe zips are really that awful and game breaking that they'd need patching, quite the contrary, as they open new possibilities in routing and general gameplay. I also never found them annoying, as for the most part you need to make an effort yourself to actually perform one, especially if we talk in terms of some more recently discovered ones, such as the statue clip for instance. Designers are also always able to prevent them from being executable, assuming that they know about their existence in the first place.
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby MECHDRAGON777 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:27 pm

Okay, after beating the level, I am surprised on how the level plays out in terms of difficulty. I actually like this quite a bit.

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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby Eclipsed » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:44 pm

MrCaves wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:43 am
Hi, I make levels I think

Downward Warping[PAL]:
Spoiler: show
This level is centered around an exploit/glitch with the player blocks

Sprites by:
Road Runner
Valtteri
Code by:
Enjl

Image
Image

Download - https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqog602auo3qy ... g.zip?dl=0
Downward Warping
Check Out SMBX Servers List - It Hosts Every SMBX Server

Check out my channel for SMBX content and custom levels

My Best Speedruns:
[WR] Invasion 2 Any% All Characters in 28:28:602
Spoiler: show

[WR] The Princess Cliche in 7:16:263
Spoiler: show
[WR]Another Princess Cliche in 23:44:217
Spoiler: show
[WR] The Great Empire in 15:36:686
Spoiler: show
[WR]Super Mario Land Returns in 7:18:141
Spoiler: show
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Re: MrCave's Level Hub

Postby MegaDood » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:58 am

This level was really creative with its gimmick, even though it was a glitch. I especially liked the part with the thwomp as is felt like you were really challenging the player.
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