A legitimate request towards the staff

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A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Nien » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:13 am

Please stop responding to user concerns with extremely apathetic responses

Some instances of these kinds of responses usually include "We're the staff, we know what we're doing", "You shouldn't care about this", "This is not a priority"

Exhibit A:
http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... 99#p229699

Exhibit B: with note on "I don't feel like doing that" and "It's not something that requires immediate action"
http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... 00#p228734

Exhibit C: with note on "Stop trying to monitor the staff"
http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... 52#p223509

I'm not asking anything extravagant of you guys, I just want you to stop responding in such a secretive manner.

This is the primary reason why ALL the threads regarding concerns end in shitstorms. The way it usually goes is: Someone questions the staff, and the staff immediately tells them to back off because "t-this is n-none of your concern!"

You could actually TRY and argue against the points people make. As with exhibit A, you didn't even make a slim attempt to defend m4st3rbr0s and mivixion, you kept making it obvious that you KNOW they have no reason to be there to the point where you can't even properly defend them (and to be honest, everyone and their mother already knows that they're only there because they're c00l dudz from lenny's land and the original smbx forums who form part of the joey funclub). It makes those two look worse along with yourself.

On the subject of exhibit B, the strongest point in there was the "We don't need this right now". This would've been perfectly fine if you actually said what the current priorities are. Heck, I haven't seen anything remotely important being in the works, ESPECIALLY considering that the forum software upgrade was like a century ago, which was the "main priority" back then.

And exhibit C is actually just ridiculous. Pseudo-Dino was handling the subject at hand in a proper manner and with actual discussion with AeroMatter, but then joey felt the need to basically tell aeromatter to fuck off (not in the literal sense of course). It was the textbook definition of unecessary.


All i'm asking is for you to not make an attempt to hide what doesn't exist from the community. Please actually try to respond to concerns with actual arguments instead of shrugging them off with the "We've got bigger fish to fry, none of your business, bub". This is why nobody bothers to politely discuss problems through private, because people know they're going to get the exact same response. The only reason to discuss problems in private is to not make the staff look bad at this point, because that seems to give you some sort of ptsd.

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Nien » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:19 am

To furtherly add into this, these kinds of responses are also contrasted by the fact that people like Pseudo-Dino and Zeldamaster actually look into problems and respond with actual statements most of the time, even if the OP is an angry ass motherfucker. That makes the rest of the staff just look even worse.

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Aero » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:09 pm

This might be the fourth or fifth time saying this, but accountability and transparency is what's needed and not these pernicious attitudes. Nothing that I nor a lot of people suggest here is malicious, but instead is meant to help but the consequences for threads aren't any different from that of spam or troll threads. The point of forums is to discuss things and talk, and if someone went into a thread interrupting that discussion with a vague post and negative attitude regularly bringing it to a halt, that person would be warned or disciplined but somehow doing that with a red name and a lock wouldn't? It's one thing for staff to step in if the rules are being broken, it's another to actively punish topics for talking about things a few particular staff don't want people talking about. What is always failed to understand is that a lock or deletion of a thread doesn't end it; discussion almost always continues in the PMs, on different platforms, and different IRC channels/queries. That's where about half (or more) of the discussion occurs in an environment where people are allowed to talk and don't have any worry of particular staff hassling them publicly or privately. I've talked to staff, level judges, level designers, and a lot of other regular members and while they all may not agree with my every proposal they do acknowledge there are problems and there's room for improvement, but that can't happen if I have to be a mouthpiece in a locked thread.

I don't think Nien is being unreasonable asking for better responses when really it can be worded as a request to be talked to like a normal person.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Cedur » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:53 pm

Regarding the previous thread by AeroMatter, as much as I'm not fond with his pessimism in terms of "it's for the best to have staff abolished", I can clearly see that this was induced by the tension that two out of three global mods (not counting masterbros) are barely present and two admins aren't listening (as Zeldamaster said on Discord), and that the system is generally considered inefficient.

In general, thinking and talking about who could be staff and if replacements are called for is a good right for us regular users as well as a legitimate concern. Crudely put, we gotta bear with what you guys are doing and how effectly you guys are running this place, after all, and although we're still an active and flourish community, we would like to ask for more transparency and more eyed-level discussion. Just because we don't have a coloured name, it prevents us to make suggestions on what could be made better and we're not allowed to try making a difference? I mean, you two (Joey, Valtteri) want us to be happy here and have a good experience after all and you're also concerned about the site's reputation, but your current attitude effects the very opposite of that and limits our enjoyment of the site, and you're not hurt or losing your face by just thinking that your way to do things isn't the only true way. You would just benefit yourselves from being more open. For example, Zeldamaster wondered if / where there are any people at all who could be fit for a new glomod, and once it obviously becomes so extremely difficult to become staff, people won't care about it and won't try to impose themselves.

Generally, in terms of treatment towards AeroMatter and every other regular user who is trying to discuss - just as we should be thankful to you for running the site, you should also be thankful to us for being interested and engaged. Actually some aspects of "politics" are common in terms of staff and their relation with users, and I don't see it going out of hand aside the tensions already mentioned.

You can also read stuff here by the way, as a memorial on how things can go down eventually one day.
Last edited by Cedur on Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby HeroLinik » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:45 pm

http://www.strawpoll.me/10800709

Guess it's time to take this baby out once more.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Cedur » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:50 pm

The situation is not so extreme either IMO that you should vote "staff is terrible, needs a severe overhaul".

Also I'd appreciate some feedback on my previous idea on User Reps from the high staff.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby sleepy » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:10 pm

I'm going to come out from the gates of hell and say Nien is right on the fucking dot

See you back in hell, Joey ;-)
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:58 pm

Here's what I'm gonna say to get the discussion going from my end:
AeroMatter wrote:a request to be talked to like a normal person.
This entire thread is an example of how this community does not operate like a normal group of people operates. If you want dialogue from us that isn't as sterile as it seems, maybe you guys should try talking to people without being condescending (especially you, Nien). This goes for everyone.

Don't y'all realize that the concept of something being "none of your business" is one that exists a lot in the real world? You can't go up to your school principal and ask why another student was given a suspension. You can't go up to your coach and suggest that a player take a lap for doing something wrong.

We can't tell you about most of the stuff that goes on between staff members because it involves information about specific users that is, quite frankly, none of your business! It's not like our staff forum is full of policy debates or whatever stuff you guys think we do behind the scenes. It's pretty much just us talking about different users and/or problem topics and what to do with them, discussion that is not in any form fit for the public eye. Not much goes on! There's also a level judge forum where we talk about users' applications and about different concepts related to level judging/the LJ-moderated forums. Having an interest in the latter is more permissible because it does directly affect how the Levels/Projects/Episodes forums are run, but, again, it's not like this forum is full of interesting discussion. If anything becomes relevant, you'll hear about it. It's not like we'd make a new rule or system without announcing it somehow.

So why is "inactive staff" (talking about m4sterbr0s etc. and not level judges as that's a slightly different issue) a problem? Oh, right, because everybody gives too much of a shit about username colors. HE HAS A GREEN NAME AND ISN'T LOCKING TOPICS? FUCK!!! OVERHAAAAUUUUULLLLL

Everyone, the point is that there is way too much concern for forum meta. This includes (but is not limited to) who is staff, who is banned, and threads being locked. That's not cool!!! It only makes my job more difficult when everyone is jumping around about meaningless things like why somebody is on the team listing but isn't here incredibly often. I get that me being inactive for several weeks doesn't really help, as there definitely are things to do around here, but the amount of emotion that is displayed whenever something happens is a problem (e.g. people getting up in arms about spam). As I've been telling you guys for a while now, chill.

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Aero » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:21 pm

You're not a coach, a principal, or anything of the sort. The staff are just other forum users with a different color name and extra permissions; there's nothing more to it that separates them from regular users based on status. All that goes on in the staff forum is talking about people and how to handle topics, instead of managing problems with the forums. It's really weird that you and some others find no problem with a small group of people making threads about people and topics in private, instead of engaging. Why is this meta discussion not a problem? You can project childish rantings onto what has so far been very civil requests for accountability and improvement, but it doesn't change how the majority of people feel about operations here. Nobody is asking for more people with green names to lock topics, and instead we want discussions to be open to bring light to solutions people may have to offer. Ignoring, locking, and deleting threads is the exact opposite of what is being requested. The forum did need some cleaning up, but that's not much of an issue now that the H&S forum is fixed up. Now some restructuring is needed, in my opinion and the opinion of many others. There are simple things being neglected at the expense of activity and discussion, and that is a very reasonable concern to have with the staff. Nobody is harping on you guys to bend a knee to any particular person's will. All that is needed is accountability, transparency, and open discussion to get things done and going. Mivixion, yourself, Valtteri, Squishy, m4sterbr0s, and more than half of the LJs haven't been up to task and that's why there's a need of some sort of overhaul to get to a better path.

Cursing, strawmanning, and being dismissive will not help your cause.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Shadow Yoshi » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:30 pm

AeroMatter wrote:The staff are just other forum users with a different color name and extra permissions;
My point was that everyone cares way too much about those username colors and who has what permissions. I want the staff to seem like normal people and just interact with everyone here like, y'know, normal groups of people do, but we can't when everybody cares so much about the minutia. What about this is illegitimate?

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Aero » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:19 pm

The staff do not interact like normal people hence the very subject matter. The name color and permissions are pointed out because those are indeed the only thing separating the staff from the regular users, but when stuff needs to get done and isn't and when there's pernicious attitudes among those groups then there's a problem to be sorted out. When someone says "Why is this user still in X role when they haven't been active in a long time," it comes about when there are issues to be dealt with such as the spam, or when levels take long periods of time to be reviewed and categorized. It's about who is staff and what they're doing with it and not doing with it, not solely the minutia. Currently the staff aren't doing much to promote and expand discussion, and in areas where their status is functionally necessary such as LJs in the Levels forum, there is serious slack. Instead of discussing these subjects, we're told that "it's not your business" and when you take into consideration that the minutia differences, as you say, are the only ones in play, then there's a big problem. You and the other staff should be able to engage in these topics and be open so that we can see what you guys are thinking and how to handle things in a more agreeable way. It's a win-win situation that way. The users are respected, get insight into the management of issues, the benefit of advancing their ideas to improve the forums, and find their way in this community. The staff are also more respected, have a more reliable understanding of what is concerning members or whatever may need addressing, and don't have to worry about collusion in private groups. I'm trying not to go to far off from the point of your post here, but SMBX forums have a history of splintering off into different SMBX forums where the same forum formula is used with personalized rules to improve on the perceived misdeeds of prior forums. If we just let discussion be open and reliably polled ideas to put a number on them to prevent demagoguery then this place can not only be safe from splintering off into other forums - which has already been attempted over an issue shot down by the staff - this forum can grow. The minutia and implied yet misplaced higher status associated with it isn't the problem so much as the pernicious attitudes that eventually arise from them like comparing yourself to a principal, or a coach and talking down when if your name was black and you had regular permissions those would be the only real changes. If this wasn't clear, then that's my bad because I'm trying to express this in general terms of the staff groups and the entire SMBX community as opposed to my previous post which responded to particular users and specific points.

I've talked to Pseudo-dino and Zeldamaster in PM here and elsewhere, and they have voiced their own questions and concerns and I have to say that dialogue is definitely more constructive, desirable, and of more quality than spit-balling ideas and having them shot down or ignored. There's a negative atmosphere around discussing forum changes so these discussions had to be in PM and elsewhere, because if any other staff member goes against your or another admin's wishes then they fear consequences. I'm not going to say who feels that way out of courtesy, and it's not just those two that I've talked to though they were the most engaging. This is no way to run a forum, and certainly no way to have a successful expanding one at that. This is a large element that goes into play when users perceive staff as these supposedly higher status members, and what lets staff (not exclusive to this SMBX forum) get the signal that they don't have to talk like normal people. This is your forum though, and I always acknowledge that when commenting here; it should also be acknowledge that this site is what it is because of the community. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, but I am trying to hold people's feet to the fire about some things.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Mivixion » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:48 pm

For what it's worth I did actually delete some spam back when that was a big deal. I may not have done it immediately and definitely didn't do anywhere near all of the work but having a life is a thing, surprisingly enough. I also do read reports and take action if necessary and if I have the time right then.

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Nien » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:03 pm

AeroMatter wrote:a request to be talked to like a normal person.
This entire thread is an example of how this community does not operate like a normal group of people operates. If you want dialogue from us that isn't as sterile as it seems, maybe you guys should try talking to people without being condescending (especially you, Nien). This goes for everyone.
People are going to naturally get angry about this kind of stuff, which leads to a condescending tone. It's like those assholes at the bank who talk to you in an extremely depressive manner and treat you like you're just an obstacle in their job, which leads to the customer getting angry, which leads to both parties getting pissed off even further for absolutely no reason.

Also, this point becomes moot when you consider people like Zeldamaster and Pseudo-Dino, who actually handle complaints in a proper manner without telling people to fuck off, as ghosthawk testified above. This means that the problem lies within specific members of the staff than the whole community in general.
Don't y'all realize that the concept of something being "none of your business" is one that exists a lot in the real world? You can't go up to your school principal and ask why another student was given a suspension. You can't go up to your coach and suggest that a player take a lap for doing something wrong.
You're taking different examples. I'm not talking about requests regarding "Why did that guy get banned?", "Ban that shitface".

If we go with your scenarios, I have all the right to suggest the principal to rearrange the student council or whatever because they're not actually doing anything and are just making fun of the lesser students. I also have the right to ask a coach why he's ignoring blatant fouls in a game. And even if they don't answer me (at least the principal), they'd make sure to handle it in a polite manner, without telling the student "stop slacking and go back to studying".

And on another subject, the difference between you and a principal/coach is that there's nobody above your position. The principal can't do everything they please at any given second without taking into account that his superiors might punish him, the coach can't either because there's a high chance that someone's parents might get on his ass. You have nobody above you, nothing but yourself is stopping you from taking action.
We can't tell you about most of the stuff that goes on between staff members because it involves information about specific users that is, quite frankly, none of your business! It's not like our staff forum is full of policy debates or whatever stuff you guys think we do behind the scenes. It's pretty much just us talking about different users and/or problem topics and what to do with them, discussion that is not in any form fit for the public eye. Not much goes on!
If there's nothing going on and you're not holding any secret political debates in the staff forum, why do you act like there is? All the time you talk about there being a lot of stuff that's none of the userbase's business in every given scenario, and you also say that there's a whole lot of different priorities that need to be taken care of first, but then you go and say that there's nothing happening? What?
There's also a level judge forum where we talk about users' applications and about different concepts related to level judging/the LJ-moderated forums. Having an interest in the latter is more permissible because it does directly affect how the Levels/Projects/Episodes forums are run, but, again, it's not like this forum is full of interesting discussion. If anything becomes relevant, you'll hear about it. It's not like we'd make a new rule or system without announcing it somehow.
I mean, if this is the case you could just say "We're currently looking into it" and leave everybody to be happy, without going all "This shits none of your business, go away". The point is to not be dismissive as fuck.
So why is "inactive staff" (talking about m4sterbr0s etc. and not level judges as that's a slightly different issue) a problem? Oh, right, because everybody gives too much of a shit about username colors. HE HAS A GREEN NAME AND ISN'T LOCKING TOPICS? FUCK!!! OVERHAAAAUUUUULLLLL
You really have no right to complain that people are condescending after statements like this. And you also prove yet again that you literally have no arguments to defend them. You go back to the whole "You guys shouldn't care holy shit" fallacy without making the slightest attempt to actually say anything helpful about them.

Not to mention:
Mivixion wrote:For what it's worth I did actually delete some spam back when that was a big deal. I may not have done it immediately and definitely didn't do anywhere near all of the work but having a life is a thing, surprisingly enough. I also do read reports and take action if necessary and if I have the time right then.
In one post Mivixion said what you could've said multiple times without being an ass. He actually defended himself without saying that he's busy with other shit or whatever, which is something you fail to do every single time.
Everyone, the point is that there is way too much concern for forum meta. This includes (but is not limited to) who is staff, who is banned, and threads being locked. That's not cool!!! It only makes my job more difficult when everyone is jumping around about meaningless things like why somebody is on the team listing but isn't here incredibly often
Again with the whole "Please stop caring". We could keep going arround this point as many times as you want, to the point where it'd become the endless "Why do you care if we care?" chain. It's just not an actual argument. You don't see principals telling people to stop caring, because the response to that is going to be more than obvious.

Not to mention, you're really in no position to say what's meaningful and what's not. This forum is not running on some budget that needs to be dedicated to different things.
I get that me being inactive for several weeks doesn't really help, as there definitely are things to do around here, but the amount of emotion that is displayed whenever something happens is a problem (e.g. people getting up in arms about spam). As I've been telling you guys for a while now, chill.
Again with the whole "Please stop caring" thing. The userbase is going to care about something if it bothers them. This is the only response you've managed to give throughout this entire post. You really can't dismiss people in a dickish manner and then expect them to not give a shit, it's just not a thing.


The main point in this thread is to ask you to not be an ass. I'm not even talking about the responses given towards me (since i was literally not involved in any of the exhibits I gave), this is a general thing that affects everyone. You can't just ignore minorities (considering that the only ones who are condescending to some extent are basically aeromatter and me) when they're asking for something and then blame them when something happens, you can't just use them at random.

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby PixelPest » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:06 pm

AeroMatter, I think the negativity of the staff towards your proposed changes is because of how extreme they are and the attitude you give towards them. Personally, I don't really think you are in a place to be requesting and generally saying the things you say about the Mods and Admins (and Level Judges too). As Joey said, I really think that people here need to accept there places. It's impossible to satisfy everyone and in some cases, people really need to suck it up and accept the truth that the staff are the only reason that this forum stays running as smoothly as it is; it's because of their special permissions which are required for them to do their jobs. Talking behind the scenes isn't a bad thing at all, but it's required to keep things civilized, such as discussions about specific users. I completely see why Valtteri and Joey have acted the way they have and I absolutely do not criticize them for it--you guys have given them some major attitude and stepped out of line and they've done what they had to. The other topics were doomed to failure, as I said earlier, not everyone can be satisfied; people just have to accept it and move on, which seems like the biggest issue here by far

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Aero » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:20 pm

Are you going to back any of those assertions and empty defenses up? If this topic wasn't about staff I would have listed you as well as not being up to task with your forum duties since you find plenty of time to defend Valtteri and Joey, and not review levels. You're not in any place to tell me what I can and cannot request, or to tell anybody what to do. The annoying thing about your posts is that before I read it, if there's a controversy regarding Valtteri, Joey, or your position then I know exactly what you're going to say before even clicking into the thread. It is not just me that negativity is being directed to, but to other staff and LJs when they don't fall in line every time as you do by the way.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby PixelPest » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:30 pm

And what? Conforming is a bad thing? Btw, the reason I haven't had time to review levels lately is due to getting my Driver's Licence, which is something that is highly time consuming. Furthermore, I do most of my browsing of these forums on my cell phone, so no, I can't always review levels. When I can't though, I make sure I do everything I can to keep the Levels, Episodes, and Projects forums clean. And why do I need to back up my posts anyway? Read any of these topics and my points are backed up by most of your posts. The main difference we share here is that I contribute to this community in a positive manner when I can and most of what you do is just complain and propose crazy ideas that are fully blown out of proportion. I side with Joey and Valtteri since they're some of the only people responding to these threads that have a good conscience. Any of my negativity that may be arising from this stems from my frustration in you

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Nien » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:36 pm

PixelPest wrote: The main difference we share here is that I contribute to this community in a positive manner when I can and most of what you do is just complain and propose crazy ideas that are fully blown out of proportion. I side with Joey and Valtteri since they're some of the only people responding to these threads that have a good conscience.
Did you actually just say that you actually contribute in a possitive manner because you side with joey and valtteri?

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby PixelPest » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:37 pm

Nien wrote:
PixelPest wrote: The main difference we share here is that I contribute to this community in a positive manner when I can and most of what you do is just complain and propose crazy ideas that are fully blown out of proportion. I side with Joey and Valtteri since they're some of the only people responding to these threads that have a good conscience.
Did you actually just say that you actually contribute in a possitive manner because you side with joey and valtteri?
Those were two completely different thoughts

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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby Aero » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:37 pm

Independent thought is better than conformity. Those will be my last words to you in this thread if you refuse to have a discussion and are going to be starting from the point of shilling instead of analyzing the problem.
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Re: A legitimate request towards the staff

Postby PixelPest » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:39 pm

AeroMatter wrote:Independent thought is better than conformity. Those will be my last words to you in this thread if you refuse to have a discussion and start from the point of shilling instead of analyzing the problem.
At least conformity doesn't make people around you miserable. Why don't you back that up with some evidence as well?


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